Some Turkish Cypriots say that Greek Cypriots are nationalists, and indeed some are.
But apparently almost all Turkish Cypriots have adopted some of the most extreme nationalistic views, and they don't even realize it.
An evidence for that is their claim that Turkish Cypriots are not a minority. Before 1974 Turkish Cypriots were 18% (today they are less than 12% by the way). The fact is that an 18% of anything is a minority. Thats simple maths. Its a paradox to claim otherwise.
So there is no way that this 18% will not be minority?
There is, only one: To take this 18% out of its group and put it into a separate entity on its own. In the case of Turkish Cypriots, to take them out of the group called Cypriots and put them alone in a separate entity.
The only result that can be achieved if this attempt is successful is partition (standard or disguised one, like the Annan plan).
Unfortunately most TC adopted the claim that TC are not a minority because the people that were always planning the partition of Cyprus (nationalists TC like Denctash, Turkey etc) convinced them.
Today most TC believe that being a minority equals having no rights, and that by being a minority GC will in some way harm them. This is totally wrong. Today we could be discussing on how we could help the TC community to achieve higher standards and ways to safeguard the security and rights of TC (in addition to EU laws).
The people that convinced you that you are not a minority are the same ones that were planing the partition of Cyprus long time before 1974. They know, that no solution will be ever found if TC insist on the paradox that they are not a minority, and this serves their aim which is the partition of Cyprus.
Minority
by insan » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:57 am
Being a minority and being a numerical minority are two quite different concepts, Piratis...
Maronites, Latins and the likes are minorities but TC community is a numerical minority.
A numerical minority has the right to be one of the constituent... This means proportional power sharing in common state.
Demanding your rights as a numerical minority isn't something related with Nationalism.
And... Nationalism is one thing, fascist nationalism is another thing...
Furthermore, add Cypruses geopolitical and strategical importance to this and fly a bit upper to see the past, present and future of Cyprus within the perspectives of Cypriots(Majority, Numerical Minority and minorities), Cypriot Nationalists, Cypriots Fascist Nationalists, Cypriots leftists in relation with foreign countries.
Then ask Einstein to explain you what is all about, in respect of relativity theory...
Maronites, Latins and the likes are minorities but TC community is a numerical minority.
A numerical minority has the right to be one of the constituent... This means proportional power sharing in common state.
Demanding your rights as a numerical minority isn't something related with Nationalism.
And... Nationalism is one thing, fascist nationalism is another thing...
Furthermore, add Cypruses geopolitical and strategical importance to this and fly a bit upper to see the past, present and future of Cyprus within the perspectives of Cypriots(Majority, Numerical Minority and minorities), Cypriot Nationalists, Cypriots Fascist Nationalists, Cypriots leftists in relation with foreign countries.
Then ask Einstein to explain you what is all about, in respect of relativity theory...
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by Piratis » Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:45 am
Being a minority and being a numerical minority are two quite different concepts
There are no two concepts. A minority is a minority and is always numerical.
This means proportional power sharing in common state.
Minorities always should have proportional power sharing. One thing is to take measures to ensure that a minority takes the proportionate power it deserves, and another thing the way disproportionate power that the TCs demand.
Then ask Einstein to explain you what is all about, in respect of relativity theory...
We don't need Einstein. TC are a minority, who by the force of weapons try to force us to accept something undemocratic.
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by Bananiot » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:01 pm
Insan is trying to tell you that everything is relative, Piratis, but it appears he is knocking on deaf ears. You could ask "relative to what" and then we would have a huge scope for discussion. But, your fixation on simplistic approaches (of the type 2 and 2 makes 4) does not allow much leverage for serious discussion, I am afraid.
In a way this is how Cyprus was lost since the early 1950's by naive, so called politicians, who, against all reason, started an armed struggle against UK (and the left and the TC) in order to achieve enosis, because this is what the majority wanted.
If only they had listened to reason! There is a fantastic article in todays "Politis" by Nicos Rolandis on exactly this issue, I wish I could post it here for all to read, but I am afraid its in Greek.
In a way this is how Cyprus was lost since the early 1950's by naive, so called politicians, who, against all reason, started an armed struggle against UK (and the left and the TC) in order to achieve enosis, because this is what the majority wanted.
If only they had listened to reason! There is a fantastic article in todays "Politis" by Nicos Rolandis on exactly this issue, I wish I could post it here for all to read, but I am afraid its in Greek.
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by mehmet » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:35 pm
Piratis, like it or not you are right that most Turkish Cypriot think being a minority equals no rights. The reasons for this are historical because of what happened in the past. Maybe in some years time Turkish Cypriots will see that Greek Cypriots don't want to take away their rights, it all depends on what happens in the next few years. That's something for Greek Cypriot politicians to consider.
Insan, there is no nationalism and fascistic nationalism, there is only nationalism. An intelligent person can excessively love his family without hating every hating everyone else's. The same with your country. The trouble is Denktas and Grivas and others convince people that unless you hate your neighbours you do not love your own country enough, this is the meaning of traitors. I am proud of many things, to be Turkish, to be a Cypriot, to be from London, you can be many things it is not black and white. For the nationalists the world is divided into them and us. It's very simple and the only conclusion to it is that we have to live separate, you wouldn't put a cat and a dog in the same cage would you?
Insan, there is no nationalism and fascistic nationalism, there is only nationalism. An intelligent person can excessively love his family without hating every hating everyone else's. The same with your country. The trouble is Denktas and Grivas and others convince people that unless you hate your neighbours you do not love your own country enough, this is the meaning of traitors. I am proud of many things, to be Turkish, to be a Cypriot, to be from London, you can be many things it is not black and white. For the nationalists the world is divided into them and us. It's very simple and the only conclusion to it is that we have to live separate, you wouldn't put a cat and a dog in the same cage would you?
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by insan » Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:50 pm
Insan, there is no nationalism and fascistic nationalism, there is only nationalism.
I'd like to believe what you said but...
Fascist movements also vary in their reliance on military-style organization. Some movements blend elite paramilitary organizations (military groups staffed by civilians) with a large political party led by a charismatic leader.
Modern societies have a mixture of people with differing values and experiences. This diversity can be suppressed but not reversed. The vast majority of Italians may have temporarily embraced Fascist nationalism because of the movement’s initial successes, but the people were never truly Fascistized. In short, in its militarized version between World War I and World War II, the fascist vision was bound to lead in practice to a widening gap between rhetoric and reality, goals and achievements.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761 ... scism.html
For Piratis:
Free Online Lecture
... minority. The minority can control the majority rule based democracy,
not though but because they are in the numerical minority. ...
www.nagaitosiya.com/english/lecture/010211.htm
I think you need a lecture about "minority" and "numerical minority" issues...
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by insan » Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:03 pm
minority-rights.org :: ICHR Lecture Notes
... A group of citizens of a state, constituting a numerical minority and in a non-dominant
position in that state, endowed with ethnic, religious or linguistic ...
www.minority-rights.org/docs/teach/sem02.htm
minority
... A group of citizens of a State, constituting a numerical minority and in a non-dominant
position in that State, endowed with ethnic, religious or linguistic ...
www2.soros.org/fmp2/html/minority.html
... A group of citizens of a state, constituting a numerical minority and in a non-dominant
position in that state, endowed with ethnic, religious or linguistic ...
www.minority-rights.org/docs/teach/sem02.htm
minority
... A group of citizens of a State, constituting a numerical minority and in a non-dominant
position in that State, endowed with ethnic, religious or linguistic ...
www2.soros.org/fmp2/html/minority.html
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by MicAtCyp » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:56 pm
The TCs accept the fact that they were 18% of the population but on the other hand they also say "yes we are the 18% but we are also EQUAL partners". There is a lot of rhetoric going on among the TCs about what this "equality" means, the prevailing view unfortunately is that they should have as close as possible to 50% Political rights, or have their own separate state grounded on as close as possible to the todays percentage of the occupied areas (37%), or both.Anan offered them both, ready in the plate.
They also refer to their rights of the 1960 contsitution -fabricated by the British and signed by us under the threat that either we would sign it or the British would return half of Cyprus to Turkey and the other half to Greece.Those "equal partners rights" were 30% of the Parliament seats to TCs, a TC Vice president with Veto power on everything, 40% (!!!) in the army, 35% of the Government jobs etc.etc.
Between the years of 1963-74 their Political rights dropped down to zero as a result of our and their extremists and nationalists aiming at Enosis and Taksim respectevely. And on top of that their MOST basic human right on life was violated extensively.Many innocent TCs were killed for no reason, and as a result there is no TC family today that does not have a close relative (upto 2nd degree blood relation) killed or missing.Then of course we had the Turkish Invasion with multiple suffering to the GCs and the cycle of the total mess completed.
For some 5% of TCs even the thought that they would live together with the GCs under any status other than a completely separate state is enough to cause them hysteric reactions. The vast majority of the remaining ones would be happy with a separate state holding at least 29% of the land as per Anan Plan.
The problem however is that the majority of the GCs are not happy with that at all.
Similarly for some 5% of the GCs even the thought that they would live together with the TCs under ANY status is enough to cause them hysteric reactions. The vast majority of the remaining ones would be happy with absorbing the TCs into the RoC with zero Political rights similar to the 1973 situation, excluding however actions of attrocities and violation of their human rights.
The problem however is that the majority of the TCs are not happy with that at all.
What I said many times, is that in Democracy each and every person must have full individual rights.The sum of the individual rights create Political rights.If the TCs are 18% of the population they must have exactly 18% of the Political rights. Even the smallest deviation from this figure is enough to create problems and provide for an UNSTABLE system.On the other hand this 18% is obviously not enough to protect the TCs on crucial issues concerning their safety, their cultural existence, and sometimes even their economic well being. Thats why I always supported that the TCs must sit down and scratch their heads to finalise their specific concerns and have them written down in the constitution of a Unitary state.
Of course I understand that the route for a solution is towards a Federation. Well even in a Federation the rights (and obligations) of the TC Federal State compared to the total must be exactly 18%. In these rights I include also the percentage of land under the TC federal State.The advantage of the Federal system over the Unitary State is that the TCs will be the bosses in their own Federal part, and this will also satisfy their emotional need for "equality".It is like the life of a millionaire and a poor man, inside their own homes.They both have the same power in their own house (unless of course the wife is the boss -he,he,he). The disadvantage of the Federal system is that it is too costly and in strong Federations the majority pays most of the cost for the manority to have its own house.
In conclussion any solution that deviates from the norm of 18% TC rights +asurances in the constitution for matters of their specific concern, will create an UNSTABLE system. The cost of this unstable system will be paid every day by all of us (GCs and TCs) until it finally either changes to norm, or left to collapse.....
Question: How much did the Anan Plan deviate from the norm?
They also refer to their rights of the 1960 contsitution -fabricated by the British and signed by us under the threat that either we would sign it or the British would return half of Cyprus to Turkey and the other half to Greece.Those "equal partners rights" were 30% of the Parliament seats to TCs, a TC Vice president with Veto power on everything, 40% (!!!) in the army, 35% of the Government jobs etc.etc.
Between the years of 1963-74 their Political rights dropped down to zero as a result of our and their extremists and nationalists aiming at Enosis and Taksim respectevely. And on top of that their MOST basic human right on life was violated extensively.Many innocent TCs were killed for no reason, and as a result there is no TC family today that does not have a close relative (upto 2nd degree blood relation) killed or missing.Then of course we had the Turkish Invasion with multiple suffering to the GCs and the cycle of the total mess completed.
For some 5% of TCs even the thought that they would live together with the GCs under any status other than a completely separate state is enough to cause them hysteric reactions. The vast majority of the remaining ones would be happy with a separate state holding at least 29% of the land as per Anan Plan.
The problem however is that the majority of the GCs are not happy with that at all.
Similarly for some 5% of the GCs even the thought that they would live together with the TCs under ANY status is enough to cause them hysteric reactions. The vast majority of the remaining ones would be happy with absorbing the TCs into the RoC with zero Political rights similar to the 1973 situation, excluding however actions of attrocities and violation of their human rights.
The problem however is that the majority of the TCs are not happy with that at all.
What I said many times, is that in Democracy each and every person must have full individual rights.The sum of the individual rights create Political rights.If the TCs are 18% of the population they must have exactly 18% of the Political rights. Even the smallest deviation from this figure is enough to create problems and provide for an UNSTABLE system.On the other hand this 18% is obviously not enough to protect the TCs on crucial issues concerning their safety, their cultural existence, and sometimes even their economic well being. Thats why I always supported that the TCs must sit down and scratch their heads to finalise their specific concerns and have them written down in the constitution of a Unitary state.
Of course I understand that the route for a solution is towards a Federation. Well even in a Federation the rights (and obligations) of the TC Federal State compared to the total must be exactly 18%. In these rights I include also the percentage of land under the TC federal State.The advantage of the Federal system over the Unitary State is that the TCs will be the bosses in their own Federal part, and this will also satisfy their emotional need for "equality".It is like the life of a millionaire and a poor man, inside their own homes.They both have the same power in their own house (unless of course the wife is the boss -he,he,he). The disadvantage of the Federal system is that it is too costly and in strong Federations the majority pays most of the cost for the manority to have its own house.
In conclussion any solution that deviates from the norm of 18% TC rights +asurances in the constitution for matters of their specific concern, will create an UNSTABLE system. The cost of this unstable system will be paid every day by all of us (GCs and TCs) until it finally either changes to norm, or left to collapse.....
Question: How much did the Anan Plan deviate from the norm?
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by Piratis » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:17 pm
Bananiot, 2 + 2 is 4, I can accept 5, but never 3. What I mean is that if we are going to manipulate things, they can be manipulated in both directions. If you say that 2 + 2 for such and such reasons is 3, I can bring other reasons and claim that 2 + 2 is 5. This is why we use some standards, to tell us that 2 + 2 is 4, and when we get this 4 non of us would feel cheated.
The standards in our case is democracy and human rights. If we start using excuses to distort those standards in the direction that is more convenient for our side then we will simply screw everything up again.
Insan, I don't need any lectures. What you post is unrelated with what I said. What I said is that TCs are less than GCs, and therefore they are a minority. What you posted does not refute my position, does it? To me it even sounds crazy to even discuss if TCs are a minority or not. The same crazy as discussing weather 2 +2 is 4 or 3. But apparently some people prefer to erase from their brains the parts of common sense they don't like.
Yes, and as I said this is a wrong belief that is created mainly from people like Denctash, that have as an aim the permanent partition of Cyprus.
TCs should understand two things:
1)That being a minority does not limit your rights. That we can discuss and find the best ways to protect not only the individual rights of TCs but also the unique characteristics of the TC community. (which are threatened way more now when more and more settlers keep coming).
2)That asking for paradoxical things like this one only serves the ones who do not want solution (and they are the same ones who convinced them that they should demand this paradoxical things).
The standards in our case is democracy and human rights. If we start using excuses to distort those standards in the direction that is more convenient for our side then we will simply screw everything up again.
Insan, I don't need any lectures. What you post is unrelated with what I said. What I said is that TCs are less than GCs, and therefore they are a minority. What you posted does not refute my position, does it? To me it even sounds crazy to even discuss if TCs are a minority or not. The same crazy as discussing weather 2 +2 is 4 or 3. But apparently some people prefer to erase from their brains the parts of common sense they don't like.
Piratis, like it or not you are right that most Turkish Cypriot think being a minority equals no rights.
Yes, and as I said this is a wrong belief that is created mainly from people like Denctash, that have as an aim the permanent partition of Cyprus.
TCs should understand two things:
1)That being a minority does not limit your rights. That we can discuss and find the best ways to protect not only the individual rights of TCs but also the unique characteristics of the TC community. (which are threatened way more now when more and more settlers keep coming).
2)That asking for paradoxical things like this one only serves the ones who do not want solution (and they are the same ones who convinced them that they should demand this paradoxical things).
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by insan » Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:00 pm
Long live re brother MicAtCyp! You are the President!
I'm %100 agree with you... In my opinion you imbibed and well examined the essentials of the issues regarding Cyprus conflict.
Just one thing has remained that we haven't jointly agreed on yet...
Time to time you refer from a "real federation"... What is the basic principles of this "real federation" in compare with the one proposed by Annan Plan?
Can you please elaborate it in frame of human rights, communal rights of two communities; representation and sharing the state power, security of two communities, structure of constituent states, economic structure of the state, seperate majority votes, etc ...
Regards
I'm %100 agree with you... In my opinion you imbibed and well examined the essentials of the issues regarding Cyprus conflict.
Just one thing has remained that we haven't jointly agreed on yet...
Time to time you refer from a "real federation"... What is the basic principles of this "real federation" in compare with the one proposed by Annan Plan?
Can you please elaborate it in frame of human rights, communal rights of two communities; representation and sharing the state power, security of two communities, structure of constituent states, economic structure of the state, seperate majority votes, etc ...
Regards
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