Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Perhaps we need to agree on some confidence building measures first, before we can proceed to negotiations for a Comprehensive Settlement. The fact that the Talat administration has been doing some progress on the missing persons issue will help a lot to increase trust of GCs towards TCs.

I am not sure what the GCs could do to increase trust of TCs towards them though.

Well if Piratis' persepective is in any way representatived of GC we have no chance. As per the 'postive action' thread GC should only enter in to confidence building measures if they are guaranteed to deliver a single unitary state with the return of all GC property and removal of Turkish troops, otherwise they are a negatative thing because they might make it harder for GC to kill TC when the time comes for GC to take back what is theirs by force. In the face of such logic how can confidence building measures work?

[Piratis]

Piratis note: This thread was created later on by some moderator, and this is not a reply to the post above. I agree that threads should be split if they go off topic but this should be done more carefully. I never asked for "guarantees" as it is said above, and in general this post doesn't reply to the post above but to some other post

In the face of such logic how can confidence building measures work?

Work to deliver what? Partition? If you do not agree that the aim should be a united Cyprus with no racist discriminations, then what would be the aim of the confidence building measures?

If lack of confidence and trust was what keeps our country partitioned, then I would agree for confidence building measures. However when you say that even if you had confidence and trust for us, you would still want to keep the land that you stole from us, and you would still demand racist discriminations, then how would the confidence building measures make the situation any better for us?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis you are still trying to get from level 1 ot 10 without going through the other stages towards a solution.
With no confidence and trust we question viable solutions with doubt, apprehension and unreasonable objections, so we need to discover we can trust each other and that our history is definately something left in the past and the GCs are not trying to to create a GC state with us as a minority.

[Alexandros Lordos]

With no confidence and trust we question viable solutions with doubt, apprehension and unreasonable objections, so we need to discover we can trust each other and that our history is definately something left in the past and the GCs are not trying to to create a GC state with us as a minority.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, this seems to be the exact TC sentiment.

By the way Viewpoint, have you heard any comments about the Kibris article? Also, could you summarise what the main thread of the article was? For instance, what was the sub-title under "Guven Yok"?

[Piratis]

What we want to create is a Cypriot state made by equal citizens with equal rights and responsibilities, that all have the 100% of their human rights within the borders of our one united country.

If you are a GC, TC, Armenian, Latin or Maranote would not matter, and the state would treat you in exactly the same way.

All people will be free to speak whatever language they want and have any religion they want, and the state will treat languages, religions, and cultures in the exact same way (e.g. All official documents will be in both languages, schools using both languages will receive the same amount of funding etc).

The result of this is ONE country made by equal CYPRIOTS that equally supports all languages, religions and cultures of its people.

Now I don't need this to happen in one day. I don't want to go from level 1 to 10. Stages and transitional periods are necessary.

However this is the AIM. Do you have a similar aim?

Or your aim is to build an as much separate country as possible, and split Cyprus into GCs and TCs based on the violations of the human rights of part of the population? If this is your aim, then how would the confidence building measures change anything?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Or your aim is to build an as much separate country as possible, and split Cyprus into GCs and TCs based on the violations of the human rights of part of the population? If this is your aim, then how would the confidence building measures change anything?

Piratis, perhaps with confidence building TCs would no longer feel that they need to have a two state solution.

[erolz]

What we want to create is a Cypriot state made by equal citizens with equal rights and responsibilities, that all have the 100% of their human rights within the borders of our one united country.

If you are a GC, TC, Armenian, Latin or Maranote would not matter, and the state would treat you in exactly the same way.

Yeah, just as you try to do in the 60s! Because we wanted (and got in paper) protections to stop the GC numerical majority from forcing unacceptable decisions on us (like enosis - the death of a cypriot state) you decided you had to remove these protections by force or deception or any other means and kill us - so we could be equl citizens in a united country presumably?

Now I don't need this to happen in one day. I don't want to go from level 1 to 10. Stages and transitional periods are necessary.

However this is the AIM. Do you have a similar aim?

Yes this is my ultimate aim but I am not so nieve as to think that just because a GC says this is his aim that there is no chance that actualy their real aim is a GC cyprus, controled by GC where TC are politicaly and effectively second class citizens.

Or your aim is to build an as much separate country as possible, and split Cyprus into GCs and TCs based on the violations of the human rights of part of the population? If this is your aim, then how would the confidence building measures change anything?

The point of confidence building measures is to build confidence and trust. If there was more confidence and trust then maybe TC would not need the same levels of protection and GC would not fear TC having some form of equality as GC apparently do now. Thats the point. However you seem to think trying to build confidence and trust without a guarantee beforehand that we will definately achieve level 10, is not only pointless but possibly negative as it might make it harder for you to kill us in the future should you ever have the means to take back by force what you lost! Building my confidence and trust already with this position alone (NOT).

[Piratis]

Yeah, just as you try to do in the 60s!

I was not born in the 60s. Don't forget that until the 1800s you used us as slaves, which is way worst. You may say "but that was long time ago" Sure it was. And the 60s will be "log time ago" in 100 years from now, isn't it? The problem is that when we sign an agreement, we don't put an expiration date on it. So do you think is fair for my grandchildren to live in a system that was made as a punishment because of that one decade in the 60s? I am sure my grandchildren will not think so, and since the TCs of that time will naturaly not be willing to give up what will then be their legal right, where would this lead? To another conflict!
This is why transitional periods with pre-defined time are essential to get from 1 to 10. Otherwise we will never get to 10. (actually i doubt we can peacefuly even get to 2 without these pre defined transitional periods)

Yes this is my ultimate aim but I am not so nieve as to think that just because a GC says this is his aim that there is no chance that actualy their real aim is a GC cyprus, controled by GC where TC are politicaly and effectively second class citizens.

Well, I am glad this is your ultimate aim also. Then why you said before that there was not even one chance in the million that you would agree for such thing???
What I say is what my real aim is. Have you ever thought that the reason you don't like me is because I am way to straight? For alternative motives look at your friend Anastasiades the great "yes" supported, whose party became home for most of the EOKA B members after the invasion.

The point of confidence building measures is to build confidence and trust. If there was more confidence and trust then maybe TC would not need the same levels of protection and GC would not fear TC having some form of equality as GC apparently do now. Thats the point.

OK

However you seem to think trying to build confidence and trust without a guarantee beforehand that we will definately achieve level 10

Please, this is not what I said. What I said is:

Do you think they can help even slightly and give even one chance in the million that you would agree that there is no need to keep Cyprus partitioned (disguised or standard), and that all Cypriots can be equal individuals in one and only state without discrimination based on race?

Do you think there is even a slight chance to agree for this, even after long (but predefined) transitional periods so our grandchildren will be able to live in one united country without such kind of discriminations?

If the meetings can have even 1 millionth of a chance to help even slightly for this happening, then it worths it.

So I didn't ask for guarantees. I asked for 1 chance in the million and this even after long transitional periods! If this is your aim too, then why you didn't agree that at least this 1 chance in the million exists?

[erolz]

I was not born in the 60s. [

I was using you to refer to GC

Don't forget that until the 1800s you used us as slaves, which is way worst.

I was not born in the 1800s. Or did you use you to mean ottomans. There are no ottomans on Cyprus today. Anyway the ottomans did not use you as slaves.

The problem is that when we sign an agreement, we don't put an expiration date on it. So do you think is fair for my grandchildren to live in a system that was made as a punishment because of that one decade in the 60s?

I do not want a system that is a punishment for that decade. I want a system that will make as small as possible the chance that what occured in that decade occurs again. I want this for me and your grandchildren.

I am sure my grandchildren will not think so, and since the TCs of that time will naturaly not be willing to give up what will then be their legal right, where would this lead? To another conflict!

If we (TC) get rights to poltical equality and if we create a united cyprus based on this and if we live togeather in peace under such a system then we may chose to forgoe those rights as TC for the benefits of a single unitary Cyprus, without fear that what happend in 60s will happen again. Even if we do not, your grandchildren will still be living in a peacful undivided cyprus even if there are two component state within it, which surely must be better than pros0pect of them living in a cyprus like we have today?

This is why transitional periods with pre-defined time are essential to get from 1 to 10. Otherwise we will never get to 10. (actually i doubt we can peacefuly even get to 2 without these pre defined transitional periods)

You have to make us believe that GC really want to live with us as just Cypriots and without prejudice. A pre set timetbale for the removal of rights you may give us now does not make me believe this. It makes me beleieve that you will wait to get a GC controlled Cyprus if that is necessary.

Then why you said before that there was not even one chance in the million that you would agree for such thing???

Er where have I said this? Wasn't me that I recall.

What I say is what my real aim is. Have you ever thought that the reason you don't like me is because I am way to straight?

I am not questioning your motives personally. What I am saying is that if you were a GC who really wanted a GC cyprus, controlled and run by GC alone, with no regard for TC and their wishes and needs that could easily be presented as a desire for a single united Cyprus. I have no means of knowing if a GC claiming to want a Cyprus where we are all eqaul really wants that or is using as good spin to achieve their real desire of a Cyprus controolled by GC alone. All I have if trust and confidence in GC as my guide. When they tell what happened in 60s does not matter this does not help my trust and cofidence. When they tell me my community has no right to any form of equality this does not help my trust and cofidence. When they tell me anything they did to me in the 60's is irrelevant in the face of what the opttomans did in 1571- 18xx this does not help my trust and confidence.

I have no problem with straight talking. I like straight talking. I also do not 'not like you'. I can disagree with you without disliking you. I do not know you well enough to dislike you (or not). If you were ever to accept to meet in person then maybe I could get to dislike you (or not). However that might make it harder for you to kill me when the times comes so you may remain a stranger (until that day) I guess.

However you seem to think trying to build confidence and trust without a guarantee beforehand that we will definately achieve level 10

Please, this is not what I said. What I said is:

Do you think they can help even slightly and give even one chance in the million that you would agree that there is no need to keep Cyprus partitioned (disguised or standard), and that all Cypriots can be equal individuals in one and only state without discrimination based on race?

Do you think there is even a slight chance to agree for this, even after long (but predefined) transitional periods so our grandchildren will be able to live in one united country without such kind of discriminations?

If the meetings can have even 1 millionth of a chance to help even slightly for this happening, then it worths it.

So I didn't ask for guarantees. I asked for 1 chance in the million and this even after long transitional periods! If this is your aim too, then why you didn't agree that at least this 1 chance in the million exists?

My mistaike and appolgies for it. What I do not understand then is why you think that GC and TC working togeather to clean up cemetaries in disrepair does not even have one millionth chance of achieving a Cyprus that would be good for your grandchildren? Surely it has such a chance and certainly more chance that doing nothing but argue here round and round in circles?

[Piratis]

What I do not understand then is why you think that GC and TC working togeather to clean up cemetaries in disrepair does not even have one millionth chance of achieving a Cyprus that would be good for your grandchildren?

I didn't say this. I don't know how much chance it has. This is why I asked: Is the problem a problem of mistrust? Or is it that TCs (if we remove the nice wrappings) want to have an independent country on land stolen from us?

P.S I didn't answer in everything, because that would be going round and round in circles again.