Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Rule 5 from Get Real's recommended site on good writing :

Make your point in the first paragraph. Let your readers get the ton of staff from the very beginning.

What would a 'ton of staff' be, Get Real ?

About 2240 pounds or 1016 kilograms??????

That is definitely not a metric tone, otherwise it would have been 1,000 kgs!

[Kifeas]

Gcs have always painted a picture of doom and gloom for Turkey that's how they wish to see the picture, but shes still around and fighting her corner. I do agree with you on certain points that Turkey will have to make a move if she wants to keep negotiations going with the EU which path she chooses is not very clear right now has the Turkish people have lost the momentum that is necessary to go into the EU. I personally do not believe Turkey will ever make it the best she can expect is a special partnership.

I hope VP that this article from TDN will answer some of your questions.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... sid=106688

[miltiades]

Now GR and/or Oracle have/has no excuse for not knowing some relevant historial facts about our long road to this tragedy...If they still continue with the blanket vilification of all TCs then they will prove themselves to be racist bigots who are out to prevent any possible goodwill and rapprochement...

DEAD WRONG!

We have discussed the events of the last century plenty of times, and in plenty of threads, and in a million ways, but this particular thread has NOTHING to do with past events but the CURRENT Turkish Cypriot crimes for which so far you are washing your hands clean!

Your attitude is nothing short of disgraceful and contributory to the Cyprus problem.

And yours is contributing to the solution?????

It is time I come in on this !!!
Rambo considers Birs attitude a DISGRACE. !!
IPEN O GAROS TOU PETINOU TSIEFALA.
You are the most nonconstructive contributor on this forum in matters concerning the future of this island , you are the disgrace to everything that is decent in Cyprus .Your constant tirades against Halil targeting his admirable efforts to come to terms with a foreign language , since unlike you he was born in Cyprus not educated , or in your case schooled in Australia. Leave the man along stop being such a bloody bully or I shall come after you boy !! And just for your satisfaction do learn that Bir is more Cypriot that you will ever be , and he is also a jolly nice human being unlike some domineering arsehole like you who thinks the Cyprus sun shines out of his arse. Have another fag Plonker !!

[miltiades]

It is time I come in on this !!!
Rambo considers Birs attitude a DISGRACE. !!
IPEN O GAROS TOU PETINOU TSIEFALA.
You are the most nonconstructive contributor on this forum in matters concerning the future of this island , you are the disgrace to everything that is decent in Cyprus .Your constant tirades against Halil targeting his admirable efforts to come to terms with a foreign language , since unlike you he was born in Cyprus not educated , or in your case schooled in Australia. Leave the man along stop being such a bloody bully or I shall come after you boy !! And just for your satisfaction do learn that Bir is more Cypriot that you will ever be , and he is also a jolly nice human being unlike some domineering arsehole like you who thinks the Cyprus sun shines out of his arse. Have another fag Plonker !!

Let me make something VERY CLEAR to you treasonous little clown…

Do not EVER allow yourself to get encouraged and carried away from Eliko’s weird loony-talk because it DOES NOT work with me.

Stick to general chat and jokes where you belong and GET OUT of CyProb threads.

Listen mate , I have never liked the joke section , if you cant stand the heat get out and go play with your emoticons .( Arhidia xidada in Greek .)
As for threatening to unleash the GR treatment on me let me remind you boy you tried it before and failed. Little nerds like you I can have for breakfast lunch and dinner so stop acting the tough guy loser Go and play now quick before I loose my temper with you

[repulsewarrior]

The question you should realy ask yourself is this:

Why did the TCs feel the need to distance themselves from the GCs by first siding with the British,and later by turning to Turkey for survival...????

You might also like to think of why the TCs felt less Cypriot than Turkish after 400 years of living in Cyprus????

Until you do that and come up with some sensible answers you are only peddling hatred and bitterness towards one group of Cypriots you need to convince you are a nice guy,in order to have a realistic solution to Cyprob....

And I am not going to give you any hints either...Lets see what you come up with your great googling skills...


If your intention is to sabotage any possible solution other than what you think is the only desirable one,you are doing a great job,GR...

I like this reply...

...although GR is quite correct with his observations.

However, a comprehensive Solution requires a reciprocal representation of Grace, because no one is blameless. We must demonstrate our fielty to Cyprus, as Cypriots, before we identify ourselves as "Greek", or "Turkish". And, we must realise, in the future, that "we" will be a minority, lucky to have our own representations, in a growing population, and in a State much larger, in any case.

[BirKibrisli]

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

When you satisfy me that there exist government instrumentalities in the RoC that can effectively guarantee individual human rights and equal opportunity,we can talk about the Rule of Law,GR...Fair enough???

Bir, the TC are not the only minority in Cyprus. Other Cypriots belong to smaller, and therefore less powerful minorities, and they have absolutely no complaints. I am not saying that RoC is perfect and that it can not be improved. It can and it should. But it is definitely not any worst than most other EU countries, and it is definitely better than Turkey. So if you want to discuss on how to make democracy even better in Cyprus I am with you 100%. But some of your arguments here point to the opposide: To make democracy worst, actually totally dissolve it, and legalize human rights violations. How can such things be a step forward??

But I want to use your quote above to say somehting on a different subject but related. What you quoted above shows very correctly that no majority has the right to violate the human rights of any minority. This is something that protects not only ethnic minorities, but any minority which might fall victim of such violation. For example if say a proposal for the "solution" of the Cyprus problem includes violations of human rights, then such proposal would be undemocratic regardless of how many people vote for it, since no majority can decide that the human rights of others can be violated. Do you agree with this?

Of course,Piratis...Human rights must always be respected by all,majorities and minorities alike...but we need to expand on that...Human rights are not endless or limitless...they have their own inherent limitations...right to life is absolute,but right to free speech,say,has its limitations...You are free to say whatever you want as long as you do not engage in
"hatespeech"...And when it comes to democracy,and majority rule,other limitations come into play...Not everything the majority does is democratic,and we know that majority rule can turn to tyranny sometimes...

Now TCs are of course a minority in Cyprus..But they are not any minority...We cannot forget our past,and cannot dismiss lightly the special problems we have due to our particular ethnicities...Historical animosity between Turks and Greeks is legendary. No need to describe it...And our own sad history in Cyprus is full of bitterness,hatred,suspicion,resentment what have you...We are still discovering mass graves full of remains of victims of massacres all over Cyprus...And there will probably be many more to come..We do our country and each other a disservice if we totally ignore the need to build bridges,to work towards reconciliation,to foster understanding and trust...Without that the TC minority would just refuse to give up their security blanket,and no amount of theoretical human rights speech will convince them otherwise...You dismiss the fear factor in TC minds at the cost of a solution..To be honest very little has been done by the RoC to build bridges between GCs and TCs over the past 34 years.,let alone during the 48 years since 1960...And the past 5 years of the Papadopoulos regime have been a total disaster in this respect...

Simple talk about human rights,democracy and majority rule do not seem to cut much ice with the TCs...Lets get real,indeed..They need to see concrete action and real proof that the Megali Idea is dead and buried,and the GC intentions are not to turn Cyprus into a Hellenic castle...
As long as both sides sit back and point their finger to the other side,as long as the perpetrators of massacres walk amongst us with immunity,and nothing is done to easy the pain and suffering of all Cypriots,there will not be a just and durable solution.This much I know...

Most Cypriots are still in denial or in anger about the events of our recent past...Some are in deep depression...We need to move on to understanding,acceptance,and forgiveness before we can talk about human rights or democracy or the rule of law...Deeply injured people cannot heal by themselves...To expect that is to be unrealistic at the extreme...When the likes of GR and/or Oracle begin to talk about the TCs with compassion and undestanding,then we can truly start the healing process...rubbing salt into wounds like they are doing only prolongs our misery...

[Piratis]

Bir, Cyprus is not as unique as you think it is in this respect. There are many countries that had conflicts and animosity among groups of people within them. Some of those conflicts were a lot bloodier than the one we had in Cyprus. The way to solve or at least minimize these problems is exactly by applying democracy and human rights, not with discrimination and segregation.

The Republic of Cyprus has several other minorities and non of them has a problem with the way democracy functions. Cyprus is a modern EU democracy, and to think we have achieved this much in less than 50 years and with having 1/3rd of our island under occupation is really a big achievement. So please do not tell me that in Cyprus human rights and democracy are "simple talk". We are on par with most other EU countries and far better than Turkey.

I do not dismiss the "fear factor" among TCs. What I am saying is that this fear is greatly exaggerated by the TC and Turkish leaderships, who use this "fear" to disguise their unfair demands against us. I have asked you many times and I didn't get an answer yet: Why did the TCs want 30% of goverment positions and such unfair gains in the 1960 agreements? Why do they today demand 30% of land to be under their rule and have a disproportionately large share in almost everything? Your theories about "fears" and all that really do not explain any of these. What explains it is that TCs have no problem with collaborating with Turkey and UK to force their unfair terms on Cypriots so all 3 of them can have unfair gains on our loss.

We need to move on to understanding,acceptance,and forgiveness before we can talk about human rights or democracy or the rule of law

I disagree Bir. What comes first is human rights and democracy. Understanding and forgiveness follow as a result. How could there be understanding and forgiveness while one side continues to violate the human rights of another?

Would you accept it if it was the other way around:
A "solution" where the GCs would get all their rights and lands back (and even more), but TCs would not get any representation, neither they will be allowed to contact international trade. These rights will be given to TCs only if / when we would forgive and accept them. Does this sound like a solution to you? It would certainly solve the GCs problems.

[Piratis]

And about building brides, the RoC has done everything possible under the circumstances. Millions are spend every year for the free health care and other benefits provided to TCs with GCs tax payers money.

The RoC would do even more, despite the fact that many (most?) TCs support illegalities against RoC, but the occupation regime is interested more in getting recognition rather than building bridges, and that is where many of the efforts fail.

[repulsewarrior]

neither party can avail themselves of their responsibility in this Problem. depite the fact that the RoC honours it committment to its citizenry it is not a shining example of its Humanity, or its concerns for the betterement of this condition. we can expect the confidence to build when beyond their individual concern for the constituency that elected them, our leadership accepts that they must do better for the world as a whole. they must not be influenced by the Nationalism which propels their own identity as persons. They must place the interests of Cyprus first, as its Statesman, and as Individuals they must act for all of us. If they can demonstrate this will together, a State will be "re-born" that is our own. And if it can be emulated by other antagonists in other countries, our recognition as Cypriots, and this esteem, will provide for Turkey a choice which would include this recognition as well as her withdrawal to that effect.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, Cyprus is not as unique as you think it is in this respect. There are many countries that had conflicts and animosity among groups of people within them. Some of those conflicts were a lot bloodier than the one we had in Cyprus. The way to solve or at least minimize these problems is exactly by applying democracy and human rights, not with discrimination and segregation.

Greek-Turkish animosity might not be unique,but its reflection in Cyprus via the "motherlands" with the combination of the British and Soviet and USA factors make the Cyprus problem unique in my opinion. We have had enough bloodshed to last us 5 lifetimes, and we ignore the need to actively promote healing at our own peril.. If we could apply democracy and human rights formula it would indeed solve all our problems...But the reality is different...One side needs to be convinced that democracy and human rights are not just codewords for oppression and forced assimilation...While I do not think they are,those who will have to vote on it do...So if we refuse to acknowledge the need to do more than count on the intinsic magic of the words "DEMOCRACY" and "FREEDOM" and "HUMAN RIGHTS" we are condemned to segregation and discrimination...Sorry,Piratis but that is how I see it...

I do not dismiss the "fear factor" among TCs. What I am saying is that this fear is greatly exaggerated by the TC and Turkish leaderships, who use this "fear" to disguise their unfair demands against us. I have asked you many times and I didn't get an answer yet: Why did the TCs want 30% of goverment positions and such unfair gains in the 1960 agreements? Why do they today demand 30% of land to be under their rule and have a disproportionately large share in almost everything? Your theories about "fears" and all that really do not explain any of these. What explains it is that TCs have no problem with collaborating with Turkey and UK to force their unfair terms on Cypriots so all 3 of them can have unfair gains on our loss.

I agree.The fear is exaggerated...But if it wasn't there,Turkey and TC leadership would not be able to use it...So the answere is to remove all the fear or as much of it as possible,so It cannot be used in this way...
wishing the fear to go away is not going to work...We need concrete measures,Piratis. These have not been forthcoming and the passing years are only increasing the bitterness and resentment associated with it...In 1960 the TCs negotiated to get as much power as they could... Do you blame them??? If you want to build a house,and one of the builders or contractors offer you a good deal,would you refuse??? would you say,no I insist on paying the full price???? The ones we need to blame are the ones who made the offerings,the ones who orchestrated the whole deal to suit themselves,and keep the Cypriots divided and ruled...

As to why they might want 30% of the land today, I imagine it is partly because they know they will need to accommodate some of the settlers plus those GCs who will return to their former homes...And partly because they feel they can get away with it...Driving a hard bargain is in our nature after all,is it now???

What comes first is human rights and democracy. Understanding and forgiveness follow as a result. How could there be understanding and forgiveness while one side continues to violate the human rights of another?

Normally you would be right,Piratis. But given our bloody history,there is a need to do a lot of healing first before people are ready to trust each other,as democracy does require a certain amount of trust and confidence especially on behalf of the minority side...The key is in objectively analysing the events of the past,and accept equal responsibility for the conflict...Plus identify the real culprits and stop the fruitless blame and counter blame amongst the co-victims....

Would you accept it if it was the other way around:
A "solution" where the GCs would get all their rights and lands back (and even more), but TCs would not get any representation, neither they will be allowed to contact international trade. These rights will be given to TCs only if / when we would forgive and accept them. Does this sound like a solution to you? It would certainly solve the GCs problems.

This would of course be a terrible situation...But,Piratis....think about it...this is exactly what happened to the TCs between 1963-74...They had no say in the running of the Republic,and they were treated as invisible pests...Sure they were encouraged by their own leaders to walk away and stay away,but the wounds in the psych of the average TC left from that period have still not healed properly...Don't please blame the entire TC community for the irresponsible actions of their leaders,and for the neglect of the official government in its "duty of care" towards part of its citizens...