Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Nevertheless it was clear to everyone that Turkish vilages were under attack prior to August 1974



Look at those dates AGAIN Cyp.

Were the 10,000 TC Mujahits playing violins and quitars from July to August 1974, or were they holding guns pointed at any GC they could? Don't pretend you were just innocent pigeons been attacked.

Would you mind telling us what would you do if you were in the position of GCs? Burn us alive in our own villages perhaps, and go on a nightime orgy of slaughtering anyone who might have tried to escape, like your cousins did in Smyrna a few dacades before?

[eracles]

this idea that the turks were going to drop leaflets and were not aiming for partition is rollocks.
that may be what they said - but we all know what happens when an invading force arrives in the middle of a power vacuum, and the tc generals did then.
they were hoping that tcs would be killed, it was all part of the plan.
sacrifice some tcs to the greater good of ataturk.

[Chimera]

this idea that the turks were going to drop leaflets and were not aiming for partition is rollocks.
that may be what they said - but we all know what happens when an invading force arrives in the middle of a power vacuum, and the tc generals did then.
they were hoping that tcs would be killed, it was all part of the plan.
sacrifice some tcs to the greater good of ataturk.

The term collateral damage against their own kind is one the Turks think is a pre-requisite in any armed contact. They probably award each other brownie points.

The truth, is they had been preparing for so long for such an attack that they started to behave like children left alone in a sweet shop. And then suffered a sugar rush of uncontollable hyperactivity

If there were less "Turks-born-on-Cyprus" left after the conflict then there would be less of them for Turkey to have to look after.

[bigOz]

this idea that the turks were going to drop leaflets and were not aiming for partition is rollocks.
that may be what they said - but we all know what happens when an invading force arrives in the middle of a power vacuum, and the tc generals did then.
they were hoping that tcs would be killed, it was all part of the plan.
sacrifice some tcs to the greater good of ataturk.

The term collateral damage against their own kind is one the Turks think is a pre-requisite in any armed contact. They probably award each other brownie points.

The truth, is they had been preparing for so long for such an attack that they started to behave like children left alone in a sweet shop. And then suffered a sugar rush of uncontollable hyperactivity

If there were less "Turks-born-on-Cyprus" left after the conflict then there would be less of them for Turkey to have to look after.

Your posts reallyt amaze me! Turkish military intervention stopped the deaths of TCs. After 1974, Turkiye has ended up looking after a lot more TCs than ever before!

The truth is, because Turkey's attempted invasion plans were discarded every time GCs attacked TCs between 1963-1974, it was the GC side that became overconfident and ended up with a "sugar rush" or "hyperactivity" to go as far as completely ignoring Turkey's proximity and under estimating her capabilities. The Greeks used to take the mick out of Turkey's inability to interfere because of American and European pressure. I remember especially one song being played over and over again, by the Turkish broadcasting Greek Cypriot Radio station the famous lyrics of which said "I waited for you - but you never showed up!".

The Greek National Guard trainig camp in Famagusta had on its roof written in huge capital letters "IF YOU HAVE THE BALLS COME AND GET IT", for the rest of the Turkish part of town to see over many years. Now it is TC "mucahit" training camp, and the letters are replaced with "I have the balls - I've come and got it"

By 1974 GCs were absolutely convinced Turkey could not and would not invade the island- BIG MISTAKE! Also, if you think showing disrespect to other nations' leaders is going to get you anywhere - you are a bigger fool than those who wrote those words on the camps roof! You do not scare or bully anyone into submission by showing disrespect to their revered leaders!

[bigOz]

Nevertheless it was clear to everyone that Turkish vilages were under attack prior to August 1974



Look at those dates AGAIN Cyp.

Were the 10,000 TC Mujahits playing violins and quitars from July to August 1974, or were they holding guns pointed at any GC they could? Don't pretend you were just innocent pigeons been attacked.

Would you mind telling us what would you do if you were in the position of GCs? Burn us alive in our own villages perhaps, and go on a nightime orgy of slaughtering anyone who might have tried to escape, like your cousins did in Smyrna a few dacades before?

Pyrpolizer! 10000 Mucahits were dispersed in various enclaves all over the island. Couple of thousand in Nicosia were constantly attacked by the National Guard soon after the first invasion wave. The same would go for the ones in Famagusta and Paphos. The villages were unprotected as usual, and in any case most of the civiliab men between the ages of 16-60 in the villages around Famagusta were taken away as prisoners of war (?)

As for Smyrna - I shall definitely prepare a post for you next week to prove who it was that slaughtered civilians in their wake and who set fire to villages and the town of Smyrna during their hasty retread (i.e. Greek soldiers). There is no point in counter accusations - hopefully we shall analyse what history says and decide what the truth is...

[Pyrpolizer]

Nevertheless it was clear to everyone that Turkish vilages were under attack prior to August 1974



Look at those dates AGAIN Cyp.

Were the 10,000 TC Mujahits playing violins and quitars from July to eAugust 1974, or were they holding guns pointed at any GC they could? Don't pretend you were just innocent pigeons been attacked.

Would you mind telling us what would you do if you were in the position of GCs? Burn us alive in our own villages perhaps, and go on a nightime orgy of slaughtering anyone who might have tried to escape, like your cousins did in Smyrna a few dacades before?

Pyrpolizer! 10000 Mucahits were dispersed in various enclaves all over the island. Couple of thousand in Nicosia were constantly attacked by the National Guard soon after the first invasion wave. The same would go for the ones in Famagusta and Paphos. The villages were unprotected as usual, and in any case most of the civiliab men between the ages of 16-60 in the villages around Famagusta were taken away as prisoners of war (?)

As for Smyrna - I shall definitely prepare a post for you next week to prove who it was that slaughtered civilians in their wake and who set fire to villages and the town of Smyrna during their hasty retread (i.e. Greek soldiers). There is no point in counter accusations - hopefully we shall analyse what history says and decide what the truth is...

BigOz whether the Mucahits were holding guns to keep their enclaves until the Turkish army comes, does not change the fact that they themselves were the ones who in MOST cases killed innocent Gc civilians after the Turkish army started capturing GC villages. Even Denktash admitted that most GC dead were killed by TCs before the Turkish Army would take them in their "custody". The point is that yes initially the Mujahits had no other option than defend their positions until the Turkish army would come. What have they done AFTERWARDS though???

Leaving the 10,000 Mucahits aside, you know very well that each and every Tc male who could hold a weapon either living in a village or in an enclave or in a town went straight on the Kyrenia through Kionelli to join the Invading forces. Those that were captured hostages by Gcs were a very small number. That's why at the end of 1974 and until 1975 we had separation of TC families, i.e 50,000 TCs all women, children, and elderly were left in the southern part.

I am looking forward for your new topic about Smyrna.

[Kikapu]

Which do you believe was a stronger desire for the GC community between the time the RoC was established and 1974:

(a) to unite Cyprus with Greece - ENOSIS; or

(b) to live as an independent State where power is shared with the TCs?

And could you also state what was the strongest action that the GC community undertook to achieve/show this for your selected answer. Thanks.

For the first 8 years or so, it was ENOSIS by a vast majority of GCs. Not all who had this desire had the will to kill all TCs. However the leadership never stopped talking of the EOKA "heroes" of the past and the "megalo idea".

Everyone can deny the above, and look for reports in the Greek press at the time - but I know it by hard! We had a good reception of the RoC TV and I used to listen to the patriotic speeches given by the GC leaders with my family, horrified at the contents. This was at every opportunity when a leader visited a village or when it was a Greek national day of some kind. Those who are too young to know are now coming with all sorts of rubbish and asking for proof etc. Those who are over 45 probably know exactly what I am talking about. ENOSIS was the only desire in those times...

During the next half of this saga, between 1968 -1974 Makarios and many of his followers realised Cyprus had a much stronger economy, better standard of life, and even social ethics than mainland Greece. With the TCs dwindling in numbers due to mass exodus by the young since 1963, it was only a matter of time before the whole of Cyprus would be ruled by GCs and the Church AS A REPUBLIC.

Being a seasoned politician by now, Makarios could see the sense in not threatening the TCs (who were not clearly a threat to any GC) and allowing them some freedom in an effort to dissolve the enclaves. Hence, the one-sided opening up of the cross-border gates to TCs for travelling around the whole of Cyprus. He became more tolerant of Denktash and there were some giant leaps towards a lasting peace in terms of inter-communal negotiations just before 1974.

GCs being strong supporters of Makarios went along with his desires, and now these have shifted from ENOSIS to Cyprus Republic for Cypriots. However, his change of heart was not favoured by many hard core Enosis supporters or Greece (ruled by the ENOSIS supporting JUNTA), both of whom Makarios underestimated - relying on the weak independent status of RoC.

That is when all hell broke loose between Makarios and Enosis supporters during 1974! So, in short the answer would be "yes" to Enosis for the first 6 years after 1960, but "No" to Enosis by the majority (if not all) for the next 6 years after that... But the ENOSIS supporters had won and replaced Makarios with their own EOKA member Nikos Sampson. He would have probably lasted a lot longer and murdered many more GCs and TCs, probably a lot more than who had subsequently died as a result of the Turkish invasion in response!

Put the patriotic feelings aside and tell me what I witnessed, saw and heard as above was just a nightmare and not a reality - if you dare!

In that case, I don't know why Turkey didn't just restore "Law and Order" after kicking Sampson out, and turn the Republic back to the Cypriots, if large majority indeed did not want Enosis. So why are we were we are today, if the Enosis trouble makers were only a very small minority, that had been already taken care of by Turkey in the first few days of the Coup, and Makarios was not seen as a threat to the TC's for 6 years before, leading to the Coup in '74 by the Junta.. This would have been welcomed by all Cypriots, GC's and TC's for Turkey's role as a Intervening Guarantor Power, which what she signed up to do in the first place.

You have a point there - but a closer look at the subsequent events would explain why things had develped the way they have.

The large majority did not want Enosis, but by the same token, because in response to GC demands for Enosis, the TCs had been asking for "partition" which in effect was a demand for double Enosis; i.e. the island should be divided by Greece and Turkey. The above being the case, there was great mistrust between the two communities and to their respective motherlands (Greece and Turkey) who were portrayed as parties interested in annexing Cyprus.

When the invasion started, Ecevit made it very clear in the international media that the military action was to restore the Republic's status, it was not aimed at the GCs, and under the circumstances it was to ensure the safety of all inhabitants of Cyprus - not just the TCs. During the invasion leaflets were dropped from air to that effect, explaining the Turkey's intentions and for GCs to lay down their arms - guaranteeing they would be treated with respect and dignity. These were dropped on an island already occupied by UN-F-CYP who also read them, hence they could not have been a bluff. A copy of one was displayed by iceman in another thread couple of months ago.

Having made their intentions clear and expecting no resistance from the locals, the landing forces headed for one of the least favourable and most defended beach heads, few miles West of Kyrenia. This was the start of things going wrong and the whole invasion process turning into something else.

Turkish army's major losses was during the first landings as above, when artillery and heavy machine fire greeted them from concrete pillar boxes (still along the coast and mountains to this day). Once the infantry faced such fire power, the warships opened fire on all suspected military positions OUTSIDE OCCUPIED AREAS such as Kyrenia town itself and the surrounding villages. Soon after GCs new fanatic leaders (Samson) and military realised an invasion was on the way, attacks on all Turkish enclaves in Paphos, Nicosia, Famagusta, Lefka spontaneously followed. Paratroopers landing as part of the invasion process also met heavy resistance from the expecting National Guard and mainland Greek forces on the ground. The same forces started a major offensive using artillery and tanks against a handful of mainland Turkish infantry division stationed in "Gonyeli" as part of the 1960 agreements.

By now the whole thing had gone out of hand, with fightings in and around all Turkish enclaves with foreign media reports of attacks on Turkish civilians by the retreating Greek forces. Knowing that TCs outside Turkish military controlled areas were vulnerable and under constant threat of an attack / extermination, the military decided to move towards enclaves in Famagusta and Lefke-Morphou areas. Before the tank regiments could reach Famagusta, the Turkish enclave in the main town had been bombarded by mortars for weeks.

When mass graves of TC civilians - mainly elderly people, women and children were discovered in no less than 3 villages few miles from Famagusta - a repeat and reminder of what was happening during 1963-67 era - the whole operation now had a new purpose. To secure an area of land where TCs can be safely kept. This was encouraged more so by tens of thousands of refugees from Limassol and Paphos region, most of them who had left all their earthly posessions to live in tents in the safety of British sovereign bases.

RoC allowed Turkish refugees in their thousands to be ferried from the British bases to North, under UN supervision. From then on, the initial purpose and aim of the invasion had shifted considerably, because for all intents and purposes GCs and the Turkish army had now become enemies and that included the TCs and GCs who had both suffered great losses (albeit the GCs a lot more in terms of human losses - that was magnified even more so by the deaths of many who supported Makarios after the coup).

So as you can see, it is not a simple case of Turkey waking up one morning and deciding to divide the island into two. The whole operation went through a metamorphosis as events unfolded. The outcome in the end had developed into today's division, and had been in both TCs had Turkey's favour in terms of territorial gain / control. But I cannot help think about what would have happened if Makarios had not died so soon after the invasion and if the international talks on finding a solution continued. Based on his vast experience and knowledge of what had been happening on the island and having seen both sides of the coin, a part of me says that a solution would have been found a very long time ago. His death created a political vacuum that was exploited by politicians on both sides and had caused the subsequent extension of the Cyprus problem...

Here are few question for you BigOz,

When Turkey decided it was coming to intervene in the collapse of the Cyprus Government to restore power back to President Makarios, as a Guarantor, did they really expect NO resistance from those who took part in the Coup. You said that, Turkey dropped leaflets for everyone to drop their weapons because they were coming in peace. Obviously this was not going to happen, no matter which country you want to talk about. The Americans told the Iraqis the same thing in 2003, then they dropped 4,000 500lbs+ bombs plus several hundred Cruise Missiles into Iraq in the first 24 hours, in the all famous
"Shock & Awe". Guess who got the "Shock" and who got the "Awe".?? So what I'm saying is, there was no way to prevent a direct fighting between the Turkish Forces and those from the Coup, therefore, the outcome on what was to happen was know in advance by the Turkish Military, which was to kill and be killed, in the process of restoring the Cyprus Government.

So why did the mission then took another turn.??? Was there a "threshold" of the number of dead Turkish Soldiers to determine, that the people we came to help, were now our "enemy".???

You said, that since Turkish villages were being attacked and TC's were being killed after the initial landing of the Turkish Troops, they were forced to now take part of Cyprus to prevent more mass killings. So Turkish Troops only went as far as the "Attila Line" and not beyond, which in the past, forum members here have shown partition map of Cyprus drawn in the late 50's, almost along the same lines, as they exist today. So the question then comes to mind is, why were the remaining 50,000+ TC's who were now trapped South of this "Attila Line", were not a concern to the Turkish Army. Why did they not just occupy the whole island, so that they can protect all the TC's and all the GC's who also wanted to be saved from the Coup participants and the AOKA-B. By not Occupying the whole island so that all the "bad characters" could have been taken out, placed all the TC's who were left South of the "Attila Line" at the mercy of these "bad characters". So there is a contradiction here from the Turkish Military, that they occupied Northern Cyprus to save TC's lives, but not too concerned about those left in Southern Cyprus.

Even after the dust settled, Turkey still could have fulfilled her obligations under the Guarantor Treaties and restored Power back to the Cypriots, even if it meant they would stay for a while in Cyprus as occupiers, to make sure all the threats were removed for anymore Enosis ambitions by the very few. I would like to think what the relationship between the TC's and the GC's would be like today, to have been given a second chance by Turkey. I would like to think, that almost all the GC's would have been very appreciative of Turkey for saving them as well from the Coupist and AOKA-B and maintained a very friendly relationship. Of course it is easy to look back and all the what ifs, but what ever the reasons were that has lead us to where we are today, and with all the good/bad intentions by all three Guarantor Powers, the RoC through her accession into the EU, is still able to dominate the Cypriot foreign policy, while the "TRNC" has remained idle. This to me is the biggest tragedy to the TC's being left behind economically and politically because of the events of 1974 Coup/Intervention/Invasion.

In the end however, all Cypriots are the losers in all this, and it will take all Cypriots to put things back RIGHT again.

[bigOz]

I will try to answer your questions above, KIKAPU (which were more of statements rather than questions).

First I must say though (and I do this with a sense of humour and not as being vindictive ) In an effort to please or brush the feelings of your GC friends, you have again opted for the one-sided or totally biased evaluations. Lets have a look at these together:

1. You are wrong in comparing Turkey's action with that of America in Iraq! Turkey did not drop cruise missiles or thousands of tons of bombs all over the island - civilian and military alike - like the Americans did in Iraq. So there was no "Shock and Awe" action as you put it.

2. Why did the mission took another turn? I thought the content of my post made this clear! It is not a case of having a threshold for how many Turkish soldiers got killed in the process. When the people you addressed as non-enemies and declared to have come to help as a guarantor power start to fire at you from the moment you step foot on the island, they automatically become enemy combatants. The mission took a different turn soon after the first day of landings for reasons explained in my post.

3. Why the army was not as much concerned with the 50,000 TCs left in the South? Yes they were concerned, but most of those had already taken shelter in the nearest British sovereign bases. The only unprotected remote ones were those in Paphos, and a lot of TCs did get killed there before they could make their way to safety. By the time the army moved third of the way South, not only Nikos Sampson had fled his position as the leader in charge of the coup, but his supporters who aimed the destruction of all TCs were in disarray or hiding, with the old government on the Greek side back in power.

They had to start with the least protected, largest, and nearest threatened TC enclave and that was Famagusta, which at the time was under heavy mortar and heavy machine gun attack for many days from the GC side! Their fears were not unfounded either when you consider the discovery of the mass graves in that region.

It was the fear of the army's concern for the TCs left South of the Attila line after the second invasion leg that hastened the GC authorities and British bases in allowing over 10,000 TCs being transported to North of Cyprus over Turkey. Twice a s many TCs made their own way (including my father and some of his colleagues who were in Limassol at the time) back to relative safety of the North. Many more civilians in Famagusta and other areas who were taken prisoners of war but closely watched by UN were also released back to North. By September 1974, most of the population had already moved to North anyway, and the threat to those who remained in the South had become minimal.

4. I had not seen any maps of Cyprus created in 1950s that depicted the borders same as those of today. I would be very interested to see the map with a source quote please. People always come up with these conspiracy theories, especially when they are not aware of real facts.

5. You say "Turkey still could have fulfilled her obligations under the Guarantor Treaties and restored Power back to the Cypriots, even if it meant they would stay for a while in Cyprus as occupiers, to make sure all the threats were removed for anymore Enosis ambitions by the very few." That is all very well but who was going to remove the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church and their preachers who are the main hate breeders as well as ENOSIS supporters? Even today, after all these years, there are considerable number of GCs who revere the EOKA movement and their actions! Have you not noticed the strong reaction one gets every time one refers to EOKA as "racist, fanatic, barbaric murderers". More surprisingly, this is when we all know who caused the 1974 trouble and gave the reasons for the subsequent invasion.

6. What did the other guarantor powers do? Forget about the Greek Junta because they were the perpetrators of the events at the time. But what did UK do to help Makarios and the legitimate government of Cyprus get back to Power? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! For all they care ENOSIS could have been a reality as long as no one bothered their bases! It is a bit rich to ask now why Turkey did not temporarily police the whole island before allowing the two communities get back to normality's of today. Just in case you forgot, all sides involved (and there were three in this war) had just murdered each other at an alarming rate! You think they would have got back to normal relations of today after few months? Oh, give me a break Kikapu...

7. I can see the GCs having a difficulty in understanding the TC position, but as a TC yourself, you amaze me when you claim it was a "tragedy that those living in TRNC were left economically behind"! What will it take for people to understand that TCs are very happy to live in a secure environment which they never enjoyed for many decades under RoC rule. They do not give a shit about wealth or economic prosperity. After being tested under very harsh economic and isolated social conditions for more than a decade, what is happening now is a holiday in Disneyland! Knowing RoC has played all its cards and things will not be get any worse economically or socially, they will carry on forever as they are.

Meanwhile, GCs can shoot their mouths off about TCs being treated in their hospitals at their expense and other ridiculous claims as if they are doing them a big favour. RoC was not looking after the TCs for the past forty plus years - no one died of malnutrition or due to lack of medical care! In extreme cases when a very serious injury or illness was involved TCs were flown to Turkish mainland hospitals for operations and treatment. In an effort to make themselves look the caring true government of Cyrpus, and as material for a good propaganda, some TCs are given medical care in the South - and even then, we have to have that shoved in front of our eyes every other day in this forum in a belittling manner! All I can say is BIG DEAL!

[Pyrpolizer]

On one hand we hear all the time from TC posters the RoC has to show it cares for the tCs, on the other whatever she does in that direction is called propaganda...

So BigOz what would you like Roc to do to benefit the TCs (other than giving indirect recognition) that you would not call propaganda?

[Kikapu]

I will try to answer your questions above, KIKAPU (which were more of statements rather than questions).

First I must say though (and I do this with a sense of humour and not as being vindictive ) In an effort to please or brush the feelings of your GC friends, you have again opted for the one-sided or totally biased evaluations. Lets have a look at these together:

1. You are wrong in comparing Turkey's action with that of America in Iraq! Turkey did not drop cruise missiles or thousands of tons of bombs all over the island - civilian and military alike - like the Americans did in Iraq. So there was no "Shock and Awe" action as you put it.

2. Why did the mission took another turn? I thought the content of my post made this clear! It is not a case of having a threshold for how many Turkish soldiers got killed in the process. When the people you addressed as non-enemies and declared to have come to help as a guarantor power start to fire at you from the moment you step foot on the island, they automatically become enemy combatants. The mission took a different turn soon after the first day of landings for reasons explained in my post.

3. Why the army was not as much concerned with the 50,000 TCs left in the South? Yes they were concerned, but most of those had already taken shelter in the nearest British sovereign bases. The only unprotected remote ones were those in Paphos, and a lot of TCs did get killed there before they could make their way to safety. By the time the army moved third of the way South, not only Nikos Sampson had fled his position as the leader in charge of the coup, but his supporters who aimed the destruction of all TCs were in disarray or hiding, with the old government on the Greek side back in power.

They had to start with the least protected, largest, and nearest threatened TC enclave and that was Famagusta, which at the time was under heavy mortar and heavy machine gun attack for many days from the GC side! Their fears were not unfounded either when you consider the discovery of the mass graves in that region.

It was the fear of the army's concern for the TCs left South of the Attila line after the second invasion leg that hastened the GC authorities and British bases in allowing over 10,000 TCs being transported to North of Cyprus over Turkey. Twice a s many TCs made their own way (including my father and some of his colleagues who were in Limassol at the time) back to relative safety of the North. Many more civilians in Famagusta and other areas who were taken prisoners of war but closely watched by UN were also released back to North. By September 1974, most of the population had already moved to North anyway, and the threat to those who remained in the South had become minimal.

4. I had not seen any maps of Cyprus created in 1950s that depicted the borders same as those of today. I would be very interested to see the map with a source quote please. People always come up with these conspiracy theories, especially when they are not aware of real facts.

5. You say "Turkey still could have fulfilled her obligations under the Guarantor Treaties and restored Power back to the Cypriots, even if it meant they would stay for a while in Cyprus as occupiers, to make sure all the threats were removed for anymore Enosis ambitions by the very few." That is all very well but who was going to remove the influence of the Greek Orthodox Church and their preachers who are the main hate breeders as well as ENOSIS supporters? Even today, after all these years, there are considerable number of GCs who revere the EOKA movement and their actions! Have you not noticed the strong reaction one gets every time one refers to EOKA as "racist, fanatic, barbaric murderers". More surprisingly, this is when we all know who caused the 1974 trouble and gave the reasons for the subsequent invasion.

6. What did the other guarantor powers do? Forget about the Greek Junta because they were the perpetrators of the events at the time. But what did UK do to help Makarios and the legitimate government of Cyprus get back to Power? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! For all they care ENOSIS could have been a reality as long as no one bothered their bases! It is a bit rich to ask now why Turkey did not temporarily police the whole island before allowing the two communities get back to normality's of today. Just in case you forgot, all sides involved (and there were three in this war) had just murdered each other at an alarming rate! You think they would have got back to normal relations of today after few months? Oh, give me a break Kikapu...

7. I can see the GCs having a difficulty in understanding the TC position, but as a TC yourself, you amaze me when you claim it was a "tragedy that those living in TRNC were left economically behind"! What will it take for people to understand that TCs are very happy to live in a secure environment which they never enjoyed for many decades under RoC rule. They do not give a shit about wealth or economic prosperity. After being tested under very harsh economic and isolated social conditions for more than a decade, what is happening now is a holiday in Disneyland! Knowing RoC has played all its cards and things will not be get any worse economically or socially, they will carry on forever as they are.

Meanwhile, GCs can shoot their mouths off about TCs being treated in their hospitals at their expense and other ridiculous claims as if they are doing them a big favour. RoC was not looking after the TCs for the past forty plus years - no one died of malnutrition or due to lack of medical care! In extreme cases when a very serious injury or illness was involved TCs were flown to Turkish mainland hospitals for operations and treatment. In an effort to make themselves look the caring true government of Cyrpus, and as material for a good propaganda, some TCs are given medical care in the South - and even then, we have to have that shoved in front of our eyes every other day in this forum in a belittling manner! All I can say is BIG DEAL!

My post was not meant to be confrontational at all BigOz, but rather just having a conversation with you. Unlike most TC's on this forum, they never want to ask questions, that may seem "anti-Turkish". I'm always asking questions of the unknown and that's my purpose, is to learn. It is not meant to politicize anything.

I was not comparing Americas actions in Iraq to the Turkey's actions in Cyprus. I was only saying, that the Americans also told the Iraqis to keep their Tanks barrels pointing down and not up, so that they would not be fired on, as well as for the Iraqi army to just desert their posts by warning them, by dropping leaflets in advance. What followed was a "Shock & Awe" in Iraq, regardless of all the warnings, because not everyone is going to heed to those kinds of advice, and neither did the ones involved in the Coup.

You are right, some of my post went on to become a statement towards the end, but the couple of questions that were on my mind from last Friday were asked, which was, "When did the mission take a turn" which you addressed it ba saying, "from day one", as soon as those who were to be helped were firing at the Turkish forces, and my thoughts are, "was that a big surprise to the Turkish Forces, when we had a Coup by the Junta and GC Nationalist".? Since there was no particular "threshold" on when Turkey will change course from the original mission other than being fired upon landing on Cypriot soil, then any intelligent person can deduce from that, the Intervention was going to turn into Invasion in a blink of an eye. I just can't believe those who overthrew the Cypriot Government were going to go down without fighting. They fought the GC's and they were going to fight the TC's as well as the Turkish Troops, therefore Turkeys Intervention plans were doomed before she left her shores in Turkey.

I too want the TC's to have their security as well as their living standards high, but also their rightful place in the world stage. At this point in time they have the security, but it does not the other two, and it does not mean that TC's security will be compromised by being a political player on the world state as well as raising their living standards. I'm not asking to trade one for the other.

As far as Turkey policing the whole island, was not meant to be for few months, but as long as it took to get the two sides back on track again. It may have taken a year or two, but there's no reason why the TC's and the GC's would not have mended fences, once everyone was against Enosis, which yourself said, that large majority did not want Enosis in the 70's, so I would like to think, Turkey as a peace maker would have had it easy. As for the Greek Churches involvement in the Enosis movement, can only influence those if they were willing to be influenced. As you can see from the last 20+ years, not many are influenced by the church to demand for Enosis. As for Britain not lifting a finger to help restore order in '74, was also a shameful act. Since Greece was under the Junta, it was left for Turkey and Britain to help Cypriots. You can say one had "good intentions" and the other "no intentions".

As for the Cyprus map being drawn up in the late 50's with the "Attila Line" as it resembles of today's "Green Line", I'm sure Piratis, Kifeas, GR or Pyro will be happy to post it. I do not have it.