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AliTalat: I am the vice president of the Republic of Cyprus

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby erolz » Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:54 pm

-mikkie2- wrote: You still insist on just because the GC's are 4 or 5 x times the number of TC's that we are 4 or 5 x to blame. BULLSHIT!!!!


I insist on pointing out the inconsistency in the view that balme fairly accrues to communites equally - regardless of their size but that poltical power can not fairly do so.

-mikkie2- wrote:Look at events and see how for every action there was a reaction.


There is a case for what you say but that does not mean for every action there was an equal reaction. Take the example of the two GC (G) killed entering TC enclave, aledgedly armed and alledgely trying to speed through the checkpoint. There was a reaction to this - 30plus inncocent TC unarmed and going about their normal business were murdered in response. So Yes there was action and reaction - but that does not mean they were equal.

-mikkie2- wrote:I do not want to sit here and argue about who was more to blame. IT IS POINTLESS because you are trying to absolve yourself of resbonsibility for what has happened in Cyprus as much as possible. You continue the blame game.


I would point out once again that I do not start these discussion. I react to GC claims that I consider (with good reason imo) to be all about trying to absolve the GC of blame for things they were responsible for. I continue to react to the players of the blame (denial of blame) game.
It still feels like you only comment on TC like myself that you feel are playing the blame game and never GC. Do you not think the assertions that GC violence was not the main cause of TC fleeing their homes by GC posters here is playing theblame game? Why do you only appear to critise TC responses to this and not the GC origninators?

-mikkie2- wrote:I for one do not accept or agree with the nationalist idiots that caused so much hardship to the TC's. Yes, as a community we did treat the TC's as 2nd class citizens for much of the time, my self personally I never have and as far as I know my family has not either. In much talk and discussion with fellow GC's we do rue the mistakes of the past, we do accept blame and we want an end of this mess, but your attitude does not allow for any meanigful discussion.


It is just a shame then that what you discuss with fellow GC is not what comes accross to me as a TC as the beleief of many GC posters here. What comes accross as the view of some GC posters here is that what the TC suffered and experienced in the period 60-74 was principaly due to TC and Turkey actions and not GC. The view that we were only treated as 2nd class citizens because we made ourselves be treated as such. This is the impression I get form some GC posters and you will have to fogive me if I react to such posts that create such impressions and try and refute them.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:28 pm

Erol,

You are making simplistic generalisations when you suggest that just because we are 4 or 5 x the number of TC's that we are therefore 4 or 5 x to blame.

The blame lies with the politicians of both sides EQUALLY because neither side did much to build common foundations after 1960. Those that did were murdered and that happened on both sides in equal measure. If you cannot accept this and continue to pile on the blame on GC's with only a token blame to TC's then what hope is there? Just the endless cycle of finger pointing.
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Postby detailer » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:31 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:Erol,

You are making simplistic generalisations when you suggest that just because we are 4 or 5 x the number of TC's that we are therefore 4 or 5 x to blame.

The blame lies with the politicians of both sides EQUALLY because neither side did much to build common foundations after 1960. Those that did were murdered and that happened on both sides in equal measure. If you cannot accept this and continue to pile on the blame on GC's with only a token blame to TC's then what hope is there? Just the endless cycle of finger pointing.


How many GC were killed between 63-74?
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Postby garbitsch » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:37 pm

detailer wrote:
-mikkie2- wrote:Erol,

You are making simplistic generalisations when you suggest that just because we are 4 or 5 x the number of TC's that we are therefore 4 or 5 x to blame.

The blame lies with the politicians of both sides EQUALLY because neither side did much to build common foundations after 1960. Those that did were murdered and that happened on both sides in equal measure. If you cannot accept this and continue to pile on the blame on GC's with only a token blame to TC's then what hope is there? Just the endless cycle of finger pointing.


How many GC were killed between 63-74?


None.
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Postby garbitsch » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:38 pm

garbitsch wrote:
detailer wrote:
-mikkie2- wrote:Erol,

You are making simplistic generalisations when you suggest that just because we are 4 or 5 x the number of TC's that we are therefore 4 or 5 x to blame.

The blame lies with the politicians of both sides EQUALLY because neither side did much to build common foundations after 1960. Those that did were murdered and that happened on both sides in equal measure. If you cannot accept this and continue to pile on the blame on GC's with only a token blame to TC's then what hope is there? Just the endless cycle of finger pointing.


How many GC were killed between 63-74?


None.


Sorry that was a very bad imitation of Papadopoulos :lol: :lol:
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Postby detailer » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:41 pm

garbitsch wrote:
garbitsch wrote:
detailer wrote:
-mikkie2- wrote:Erol,

You are making simplistic generalisations when you suggest that just because we are 4 or 5 x the number of TC's that we are therefore 4 or 5 x to blame.

The blame lies with the politicians of both sides EQUALLY because neither side did much to build common foundations after 1960. Those that did were murdered and that happened on both sides in equal measure. If you cannot accept this and continue to pile on the blame on GC's with only a token blame to TC's then what hope is there? Just the endless cycle of finger pointing.


How many GC were killed between 63-74?


None.


Sorry that was a very bad imitation of Papadopoulos :lol: :lol:


I really want to know the rough number if it is possible.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:26 pm

None????

Have a look at Cyprus conflict web site Garbirsch.

****************

Erol of course the obvious thing were the attacks of the GCs.Nothing else was visible, nothing that to do with the filling of those villages by TMT rebels. It was all accidental.Grivas was targetting TC villages in random Order.Nothing to do with what was going on inside those villages like Kofinou, Kokkina/Eronkoy and the mojority of the villages.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:44 am

detailer

Are you just another brainwashed TC or was that supposed to be a joke?

If you only look at what befel the tc's withour knowing what happened to the gc's then how can you have an objective opnion?
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Postby erolz » Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:57 am

-mikkie2- wrote:detailer

Are you just another brainwashed TC or was that supposed to be a joke?

If you only look at what befel the tc's withour knowing what happened to the gc's then how can you have an objective opnion?


Have you seen the starting post here by AA ?

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

Will you be applying a similar post to his similar question?
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Postby erolz » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:48 am

-mikkie2- wrote:
The blame lies with the politicians of both sides EQUALLY because neither side did much to build common foundations after 1960. Those that did were murdered and that happened on both sides in equal measure.


Nope sorry I do not agree. To express my view again in a differnt way.

GC as the more powerful community (numericaly and politicaly and physicaly) had more power and more ability to either make the 60 consitituion work or fail, to settle problems with legal peaceful means or illegal violence than the TC community did as the weaker smaller community. This is simply a function of the different sizes of the commuities. For there to be an equality to this responsibility in absolute terms TC would have to have been four times more violent, evil and destructive per head of population (or per 'bad politician' if you prefer) to make up for being four times smaller. This is just basic maths to use a favourite GC expresseion re 'democracy'.


Or in analogy form.

5 people in a boat called Cyprus all with oars. 4 of them GC. 1 of them TC. If the four GC all rowed as hard as they could towards the island of peace an untiy and non violence - nothing the TC rower could do by rowing with all his strength towards the island of disharmony, violence and division could stop Cyprus (the boat) from arriving at the island of peace harmony and non violence. The TC rower could have slowed it down and made it harder by rowing in the opposite direction but as a single rower aginst 4 rowers they could not have stopped it. So when the boat in fact arrives at the island of disharmony violence and division it is simply not 'good enough' to say that both the TC and GC rowers are equally to blame - even if the TC rower in fact rowed towards this island as equaly hard as the GC rowers did. The GC rowers had a chance to row in a different direction regardless and the TC rower did not. That means to me the GC rowers have more of the blame for where the boat ended up because they had more ability to control its direction.

-mikkie2- wrote:
If you cannot accept this and continue to pile on the blame on GC's with only a token blame to TC's then what hope is there? Just the endless cycle of finger pointing.


Firstly I have never said TC only have a 'token' amount of blame in this period. I have never said TC have a lot less blame than GC in this period. I have never said TC have significantly less blame in this period. All I have ever said is that TC have less blame in this period. Just less - no amount less have I ever given. So to claim I 'pile' on the blame to GC and say TC blame is 'token' is actually to exagerate what I have said and what I am saying.

If you cannot accept that the 4 GC rowers in the Cyprus boat to the 1 TC rower in the Cyprus boat had more ability to control where the boat ended up and thus more responsibility for where the boat ends up regardless of what the single TC rower did, then what hope is there?
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