Cyprus-Forum.com

[B25]

I am in my country. TRNC.

Wrong you are squatting there, you have done so since 1571, time you went and a near future court hearing will have you extracted and shipped out. Just make sure you take your cheapskates with you and let them brag how good Turkey is from over there.

Remember you came to OUR shores and you abused US. You were never invited, the peace loving GCs never wanted you here, you came by force. And you clain victim status, pft!

[GreekForumer]

And here in is the problem we speak but they do not want to listen as they only see what they want to see which is their rights and nothing else.

I am listening VP. Let's start with some facts.

What percentage of all TCs were in enclaves ?

And of those TCs outside of the enclaves, what violence did they experience from 1967 - 1974?

The floor is yours.

The majority either lived in TC villages or enclaves the fact of the matter was that these people were discriminated against persecuted and treated differently to Gcs, they were considered second class citizens.

You need to talk to TCs like Açıkgoz who has given you a first hand experience of what went on you can choose to ignore it all you want but it will not go away it happened and its about time you acknowledged otherwise no TC will ever take you seriously.

A quick recap of the argument........

Miltiades said "How many T/Cs were killed in the so called massacre that was NOT taking place 6 years prior to the Turkish invasion."

only me said "very few Turkish Cypriots died in those six years ......happy miltiades ? WHY because they where in enclaves covering 3% of the Ilsland "

VP said "TCs did not die prior to 1974 which is one of your best selling points only because we were in enclaves and under protection, what have you go to say about this important point?"

GreekForumer said "What percentage of all TCs were in enclaves ?And of those TCs outside of the enclaves, what violence did they experience from 1967 - 1974?"

VP said "The majority either lived in TC villages or enclaves the fact of the matter was that these people were discriminated against persecuted and treated differently to Gcs, they were considered second class citizens. "

Do you see the problem with the TC argument VP ?

Very few TCs were killed in the previous 6 years before 1974 because they were protected in enclaves. So it follows, the TCs who did not live in enclaves must have been attacked and killed because they were unprotected.

So we must answer the decisive question.

"How many TCs lived outside the protection of the enclaves and how many of those were killed?"

[wyoming cowboy]

Nowadays all TC have managed to self enclave themselves, more or less they stick their heads in the sand of the occuppied territories, and have recently been allowed to (2004) to unstick their heads out of the sand long enough to come to the ROC to get medical help, ROC passports and to shop at IKEA, then they go back to the occuppied areas, restick their heads in the sand but before they do they are ordered to yell ".........the GC enclaved us and embargoed us the Tc, cyprus turks, and they are all bad, and they are the boggey man", then their head goes back in the sand again....the process is repeated every flu season or when a carpetbagger brit buys one of our properties from them...and they have enough cash to come and shop again....

[wyoming cowboy]

I hear the fiberboard bookcases are on sale at Ikea this month...

[Acikgoz]

wyoming, been on those plains too long - you really are barking mad

[YFred]

wyoming, been on those plains too long - you really are barking mad

Are you implying that he starred in Brokeback mountain?

[Naggie]

Can I ask for some enlightenment on these type of quotes...

"HOW MANY TIMES, this Cyprus problem did NOT start in 1974. Nobody denies Greek Cypriots were killed in July August 1974. IT WAS A WAR.
YOU instigated a Turkish intervention with Enosis and the Greek Coup."

The 'YOU' in this common type of forum cliche is the implied Greek Cypriots and/or Cyprus. Now, correct me please as my interest is not that great on this matter, but it was not the official Cypriot government position of Cyprus to target TCs or to follow enosis - simply a terrorist organisation that may have had the backing of a third country (in this case Greece). However, Turkey acted as a nation state, and so is accountable as a nation state for any perceived crimes. Cyprus as a national entity is not accountable, only individuals who may be perceived to have Greek Cypriot backgrounds, through criminal courts.

The equivalent can be seen through acts of modern terrorism... even where groups claim to be acting in national interests. Countries can not segregate all of their citizens or retaliate against other nations on the basis of a terrorist group's national origin because these acts of terrorism are not committed by the official nation states - merely terrorist groups claiming to represent their interest or originating from certain countries (as we all do). In fact, as in the Cyprus problem case, the official position of the governments of many of these countries is to condemn these acts of terrorist and to state that they are not in support of their supposed causes.

So, to conclude, the official government of Cyprus' position was not enosis or the targeting of TCs. This was the intention of a group of terrorists claiming to act in national interest. Cyprus was not acting on a national level.

However, Turkey's actions were committed on a national level against Cyprus. Arguably, a case can be made on the level of 'failed policing' but certainly not against the policies of the nation state. So, to continue to justify actions against Cyprus as a nation is invalid, because Cyprus as a legal country did not and never has had enosis as a policy - this was committed on the level of the citizen, for which criminal law is then applicable.

Please correct me if this is wrong.

[YFred]

Can I ask for some enlightenment on these type of quotes...

"HOW MANY TIMES, this Cyprus problem did NOT start in 1974. Nobody denies Greek Cypriots were killed in July August 1974. IT WAS A WAR.
YOU instigated a Turkish intervention with Enosis and the Greek Coup."

The 'YOU' in this common type of forum cliche is the implied Greek Cypriots and/or Cyprus. Now, correct me please as my interest is not that great on this matter, but it was not the official Cypriot government position of Cyprus to target TCs or to follow enosis - simply a terrorist organisation that may have had the backing of a third country (in this case Greece). However, Turkey acted as a nation state, and so is accountable as a nation state for any perceived crimes. Cyprus as a national entity is not accountable, only individuals who may be perceived to have Greek Cypriot backgrounds, through criminal courts.

The equivalent can be seen through acts of modern terrorism... even where groups claim to be acting in national interests. Countries can not segregate all of their citizens or retaliate against other nations on the basis of a terrorist group's national origin because these acts of terrorism are not committed by the official nation states - merely terrorist groups claiming to represent their interest or originating from certain countries (as we all do). In fact, as in the Cyprus problem case, the official position of the governments of many of these countries is to condemn these acts of terrorist and to state that they are not in support of their supposed causes.

So, to conclude, the official government of Cyprus' position was not enosis or the targeting of TCs. This was the intention of a group of terrorists claiming to act in national interest. Cyprus was not acting on a national level.

However, Turkey's actions were committed on a national level against Cyprus. Arguably, a case can be made on the level of 'failed policing' but certainly not against the policies of the nation state. So, to continue to justify actions against Cyprus as a nation is invalid, because Cyprus as a legal country did not and never has had enosis as a policy - this was committed on the level of the citizen, for which criminal law is then applicable.

Please correct me if this is wrong.

The current Cyprus problem did not start in 1974 and not even 1963. It actually started in 1960 just a few months after the roc was set up. Our beloved officially GC elected government took it upon themselves to set a plan called akritas in motion for the purposes of destabilising the roc and facilitating enosis with greece. The whole purpose of the plan was to antagonise TCs to an extent where they would riot so the GC administration would have a reason to attack and remove TCs from Cyprus. 1963 events were a direct consequence of that plan which in itself led to 1974. It was not just a band of GCs but the whole of the National Guard that took part in he coup. The only group opposing them were the Presidential guard and the police which were loyal to Makarios. So to answer your question is the roc responsible for everything that happened in Cyprus, unfortunately as it's root can be traced right back to that Akritas plan meeting in 1960, including Grivas, Makarios, Clerides TPapa Yorgadjis, Sampson and the rest of the bastards in the roc.
I hope that clears at leas one small and insignificant point about this matter (roc).

[Naggie]

Thanks YFred. I see - still, it seems from my reading that the factual government position of the nation state at the time of the invasion was not officially in support of enosis, whatever prior meetings had taken place. Therefore, the 'crimes' are still on a citizen led level because at the time of invasion the national government position was a non-justification. Freedom of speech allows for discussion of alternatives, pending further consideration as to their legality.

With regards points of origin, from my reading, much before the 60s, Turkey had drawn up plans to divide Cyprus ethnically, and so this idea of origin seems to endlessly generate new focus points. For example, the idea of 'Taxim' (division of the island) was proposed in 1956 by the Turkish Cypriot leader F. Kutchuck, much before your historical reference points.

In the Milliyet newspaper in the 80s, Denktash was also quoted as stating: "Even if the Turkish-Cypriots did not exist, Turkey would not have left Cyprus to Greece." In other words, even if there were no 'Turkish Cypriots' on the island, Turkey would have looked to have intervened if both Cyprus and Greece decided that they would like to nationally unite.

Please continue to enlighten me YFred - much appreciated.

[apc2010]

Naggie being enlighten by yfred on the cyprob is like learning about child care from myra hindley...