Cyprus-Forum.com

[MicAtCyp]

when Greek administration finished the Republic of Cyprus then caused the separation and proved that two society can not live together because of Greeks. you caused to this situation and you have to appropriate TRNC.


another subject is that the side who made ethniic cleansing was Greeks. How could Turkish people make it without weapon........(snip)

In all that post I did not find a single sentense, to say ok this is right Everything is wrong! So until you get educated and start writting at least some truths, there is no point even replying you.It's like trying to correct an algebra paper of a "bakkal" who only knows how to count upto 100.Totally useless... Get a better education man, Denktash’s primary school aint good.

[Viewpoint]

In all that post I did not find a single sentense, to say ok this is right Everything is wrong! So until you get educated and start writting at least some truths, there is no point even replying you.It's like trying to correct an algebra paper of a "bakkal" who only knows how to count upto 100.Totally useless... Get a better education man, Denktash’s primary school aint good.

These are the words of a moderator, admin take note....you should apologise and lighten up, man you are so changable one minute level headed and balanced the next like you are on drugs.

From MicAtCyp: VP you can always complain to the the Admin directly.
Dont forget to carry your acids with you at the meeting...

[faruk]

what i wrote here was the truth of island if you just look at to history you can easily understand the truths. definetely two side had pain but when you observe the starting point of the problem you can easily relaize the Greek side caused this situation.ıt is very big mistake to claim that you did not make Turkish people suffer under the leading of makarios or you can not ignore the "Akritas plan" which targeted to destroy all Turkish Cypriots in one night. and Klerides Papadopulos And internal minister akritas planned it. so you can not ignore it. do not you think that Turkish people had no right for self determination which you showed this right to world as it could be only your right and ignore Turkish People after you had destroyed the republic of Cyprus and try to terminate the Turkish people.

my education is depending on the historical events and i think yours are depending on hostile education beginning since primary school. we say it always that may the peace be forever on the earth.. we only want our just state and live in peace with our neighbour country called Greek Administraiton of South Cyprus. and if you enforce yourself you can count after 100

when Greek administration finished the Republic of Cyprus then caused the separation and proved that two society can not live together because of Greeks. you caused to this situation and you have to appropriate TRNC.


another subject is that the side who made ethniic cleansing was Greeks. How could Turkish people make it without weapon........(snip)

In all that post I did not find a single sentense, to say ok this is right Everything is wrong! So until you get educated and start writting at least some truths, there is no point even replying you.It's like trying to correct an algebra paper of a "bakkal" who only knows how to count upto 100.Totally useless... Get a better education man, Denktash’s primary school aint good.

[MicAtCyp]

what i wrote here was the truth of island if you just look at to history you can easily understand the truths.

The truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or the "truth" Denktash told you? Well lets see your truths:

definetely two side had pain

Equal Pain though? You had your problems in the 60s.The GCs had most of the blame but not all. You lost about 1000 people.We lost the same number.Then in 1974 we lost 6000 plus 1600 missing. We had 200,000 refugees. You got 3 times as much land as you left behind.You took 20 times more valuable land than what you left behind.Yes we had 200,000 refugees living under the tents you had 50,000 of people moving into luxury. So is the pain the same?

but when you observe the starting point of the problem you can easily relaize the Greek side caused this situation

Really? How come then, the first organised killing was done by TCs in 1958 in Kontemenos? Who did the first organised import of arms to be used exclussively against the other Community getting a whole ship with arms from Turkey in 1959?

?t is very big mistake to claim that you did not make Turkish people suffer under the leading of makarios

It is a very big mistake to claim the suffering of the TCs was due exclussively to the actions of the GCs.Forgot your TMT and your leadership?

you can not ignore the "Akritas plan" which targeted to destroy all Turkish Cypriots in one night.

Oh really?Tell me were in the Akritas plan it says such a thing.

and Klerides Papadopulos And internal minister akritas planned it. so you can not ignore it.

These are allegations.Do you have hard evidence? Yet we do have hard evidence of a map belonging to the TC Minister of Agriculture showing the 1974 Attila line from 1963 i.e 11 years before it even happened!!

not you think that Turkish people had no right for self determination which you showed this right to world as it could be only your right and ignore Turkish People

thats why I said you need education.Both the TCs and the GCs have a right for self determination.This right does not give anyone the right to split the Country or annex it with another Country.So get your facts straight. You do not have any right to take the GC people out of their homes and lands and steal everything because this is not a legal practice of your self determination right.

after you had destroyed the republic of Cyprus and try to terminate the Turkish people.

We have destroyed the RoC? Not it's you who tried to destroy it by abandoning it and by freezing it's budget so it would collapse.It is you who called your mama to invade it and steal half of it in 1974 and it is you you set your own administration in the Nicosia enclave in 1963.
Yet much to your regret RoC is still alive thanks to the strong support of the GCs, The maronite Cypriots, The Armenian Cypriots, And the Latin Cypriots, i.e from ALL except you! And it is one of the 25 members of the EU.

my education is depending on the historical events and i think yours are depending on hostile education beginning since primary school.

Yet it is you who built Educational Museums of hate and like you said in another post you spend a lot of time educating yourself in there.

we only want our just state and live in peace with our neighbour country called Greek Administraiton of South Cyprus

You will never be allowed to have your own state built by 90% on our stolen homes and lands, no matter how much you want it. If you want to be our neighbours you can build your own state in Southern Turkey.

By the way this is Lesson No 1. If you want to learn to count upto 200, it will cost you "yirmi lira" i.e 10%.

[erolz]

thats why I said you need education.Both the TCs and the GCs have a right for self determination.

Tell that to Piratis!

This right does not give anyone the right to split the Country or annex it with another Country.So get your facts straight. You do not have any right to take the GC people out of their homes and lands and steal everything because this is not a legal practice of your self determination right.

Does the right to self determination give you the right to kill and murder innocent members of the group that stops you exercising your right to self determination - as the 'brave eoka heros of liberation' did against the british? Was it not you that argued in an earlier thread that GC had a right to kill innocent British in the persuit of their rights to self determination in the 50's (if it was not you then applogies but thats what I remember)? So the brave EOKA heros had a right to murder innocent British subjects in the persuit of self determination but TC have no right to take land in the persuit of theirs? My personal view is that the right of self determiantion gives neither party a right to do what they did (not 'EOKA heros' or Turkey) but your apprently is that violence by GC in persuit of self determination was just and right (and the perptrators heros) bu violence against GC by others in the persuit of their rights to self determination is unjust and 'terrorism' (not herosim). Seems a tad inconsistent to me?

We have destroyed the RoC? Not it's you who tried to destroy it by abandoning it and by freezing it's budget so it would collapse.

Both of these were PEACEFUL and in my view legitimate 'protests' to the illegal refusal of the GC leaership to implement the AGREED provisions on municipalites. An issue that the high court of the then RoC rule on against the GC community and was promptly ignore by Makarios! This idea that GC did not want the 60's agreements to fail and TC did is just such patent nonsense - yet oft stated by some GC here. From the moment it was signed GC from Makarios downward starte the process of decrying the very agreemens they made and ploting ways they could impose changes to them against the will of TC community and the law of Cyprus.

[MicAtCyp]

Erol,

I understand it suited you to quote only a part of what I said about the self determination right.You forgot the "educational" part which was the most important.

Yes in fact you owe me an apology for what you said in your second paragraph, and an additional apology for not knowing my positions after almost 2 years of reading my posts.

As for your 3rd paragraph the actions of Makarios were PEACEFUL too. If you say nonsense you will receive nonsense in return.

[erolz]

Erol,

I understand it suited you to quote only a part of what I said about the self determination right.You forgot the "educational" part which was the most important.

?

I said tell Piratis that we as TC community have a right to self determination. I do not understand your comment.

Yes in fact you owe me an apology for what you said in your second paragraph, and an additional apology for not knowing my positions after almost 2 years of reading my posts.

Do I ?

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... kill#20262

Are you saying that you have no right to kill, when someone violates your human rights? I think you are wrong.

As for your 3rd paragraph the actions of Makarios were PEACEFUL too. If you say nonsense you will receive nonsense in return.

Peacful and legitimate. Refusing to implement the AGREED provisions on municipalites - even when the RoC supreme court had ruled against Makarios was not legitimate or legal. You made out we chose to 'leave' the RoC as it was written in 60s. In fact we withdrew from a RoC that refused to implement the 60's agreements and ignored it's own legal and consitituional supreme court. That was not leaveing the RoC as per the 60's agreements - that was walking out on a perversion of the RoC where Makarios and GC simply did as they wished regardless of rule of law the consitituion.

[Piratis]

I said tell Piratis that we as TC community have a right to self determination.

Ok, lets discuss about this.

Self determination is about determining about your own self.

Lets see if you can answer clearly these two questions:

Erolz, Piratis and MicAtCyp can determine about our own selves because we have one brain each and we know what we want. How does a community determine its direction since it is made by 1000s of brains and not one?

Lets accept that TCs have self determination. So they can determine what belongs to them, fine no problem with that. How about the things that they own only 18% share of? How are these things part of the TC self determination?

[gabaston]

Piratis..
Sorry to jump in here chaps

Piratis is this one of them gc questions that us tcs don’t get?

Erolz, Piratis and MicAtCyp can determine about our own selves because we have one brain each and we know what we want. How does a community determine its direction since it is made by 1000s of brains and not one?

Or is it another of them one man vote things again?

[erolz]

Ok, lets discuss about this.

In general I have taken a decision to not try and discuss anything with you for the moment as I just can not see the point. I do not make this decision lightly or without regret. I believe in dialogue. I believe in talking. I believe in paticence and persistence. I am however pretty much drained of all of these beliefs as far as I view attempts at constructive discussion with yourself. I am sorry to feel compelled to take such a decsion.

Having said that I will make comment on this post of yours

Self determination is about determining about your own self.

The above is to totaly fail to understand what the right to self detemination means and to whom it applies.

Human rights can be broken down into two major categories. The rights of indivduals and the rights of peoples. The right to self determination is a right held by peoples and not indivduals.

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/f3c9 ... endocument

The right of self-determination is of particular importance because its realization is an essential condition for the effective guarantee and observance of individual human rights and for the promotion and strengthening of those rights.

Erolz, Piratis and MicAtCyp can determine about our own selves because we have one brain each and we know what we want. How does a community determine its direction since it is made by 1000s of brains and not one?

A more thorough misunderstanding of what the right to self determination means I find hard to imagine. You are basicaly arguing that the right to self determination can only be held by indivduals and never by groups. Such an argument is absolutley at odds with all the charters on human rights that exist.

Lets accept that TCs have self determination. So they can determine what belongs to them, fine no problem with that. How about the things that they own only 18% share of? How are these things part of the TC self determination?

A senario such as we have in Cyprus, where a new nation state was created from the ending of colonial rule that had two distinct and seperate peoples or communites in it, neither of which owned exclusive territory and neither of which had ruled their own affairs historicaly and where one community (or both if you prefer) sought to impose a state of affairs that was diametricaly opposed to the desire of the other community / people probably represent one of the most complex challenges re human rights and specifically the exercise of the right to self determinantion.

If in such a complex senario and if violence and imposition of the abuse of one communites rights at the expense of the others is to be avoided (as we have now and had pre 74) then there needs to be an acceptance that neither side can have full and unfetterd execise of their total rights. Basicaly each side has to accept some compromise on this to achieve an even greater goal of peace and untiy.

To date you have taken the simple approach - namely to deny that the TC community has such rights at all. Such an approach in turn undermines every human right of TC - indivdual and communal, as the UN decleration quoted above clearly points out.

When dominant ethnic groups ignore the socio-economic and cultural identity needs and rights of other peoples within the same state, demands for self-determination arise. Wars that threaten the stability of whole regions often result.