Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

You have the presumptuous audacity to claim that Greeks are completely innocent of any wrongdoing

Propaganda is to lie. To say that something happened while it never did. For example to claim that I said something that I never did, like you do. I challenge you to post a quote of any of my 1000s of posts in here that I claimed that Greeks are completely innocent.

I stated a simple fact: that the claim of that banner is a lie, and that saying lies is the easiest thing to do. For example: "press the reply button and type that Piratis said that Greeks are completely innocent". It is really very easy.

Anyways, what I always say in this subject is that of course the Greeks (and Greek Cypriots) are not completely innocent, but they have caused only 1/100th the suffering to the the Turks than the Turks have caused to us over history. This is a simple fact.

[erolz]

Propaganda is to lie. To say that something happened while it never did. For example to claim that I said something that I never did, like you do.

And how many times have you done exactly that to myself and others? Shall I quote the many many examples ?

[Piratis]

And how many times have you done exactly that to myself and others? Shall I quote the many many examples ?

Go ahead. If it ever happened it was part of misunderstanding and not intentional. I am always trying to understand what you want exactly, but with the so many double standards you support it is not easy.

[2fan]

You have the presumptuous audacity to claim that Greeks are completely innocent of any wrongdoing

Propaganda is to lie. To say that something happened while it never did. For example to claim that I said something that I never did, like you do. I challenge you to post a quote of any of my 1000s of posts in here that I claimed that Greeks are completely innocent.

I stated a simple fact: that the claim of that banner is a lie, and that saying lies is the easiest thing to do. For example: "press the reply button and type that Piratis said that Greeks are completely innocent". It is really very easy.

Anyways, what I always say in this subject is that of course the Greeks (and Greek Cypriots) are not completely innocent, but they have caused only 1/100th the suffering to the the Turks than the Turks have caused to us over history. This is a simple fact.

Then there is something inately wrong with your philosophy. Do you REALLY believe that Turks just suddenly decided to kill everyone??????????
Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that a people can be that barbarous to kill their neighbor of a 1000 years without provocation?????????????

Let me tell you something...I lost two grand uncles and a grand Aunt in Izmir when the greeks decided to invade at the behest of the "great powers" Yet my family always taught me not to hate the Greeks and to this day I don't. But what I expect from you is a bit of common courtesy when Turkish feelings are involved. You are not the only ones that suffered. And reducing events that happened to a silly ass credit card commercial is tantamount to treason. I thought I joined an enlightened group of people on this forum.

[erolz]

And how many times have you done exactly that to myself and others? Shall I quote the many many examples ?

Go ahead.

The examples are legion.

If it ever happened it was part of misunderstanding and not intentional.

But if it is done to you it is propaganda.

I am always trying to understand what you want exactly, but with the so many double standards you support it is not easy.

My position is as clear and consistent. Just to take one recent example on the issue of 'how much equality to TC (I) require'. I have NEVER asked for total equlity at all levels on everything. I have explained time and again where I think there should be equlity and where there should not, in plain and simple terms. Just as regulalry you claim I demand total equality on everything, with the latest example being a few days ago.

[Piratis]

Do you REALLY believe that Turks just suddenly decided to kill everyone??????????
Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that a people can be that barbarous to kill their neighbor of a 1000 years without provocation?????????????

You tell me what was the provocation when the Turks occupied Byzantium, Greece and Cyprus. Maybe you have the secret history files that show that the Byzantines went up to Mongolia to provoke Turks?

You are not the only ones that suffered.

Again. I never claimed that we are the only ones. What I claimed is simple: Turks caused to the Greeks (and GCs) 100 times more suffering than Greeks caused to Turks (and TCs). This is what I say, do you disagree with this?

And reducing events that happened to a silly ass credit card commercial is tantamount to treason

I didn't reduce any events. I reduced the specific banner, which was nothing more than a propaganda lie. Is this so hard for you to understand?

I thought I joined an enlightened group of people on this forum.

COMMENT REMOVED BY MODERATOR (EROLZ)

Personal insults are not acceptable. Please try not to make them. Thank you.

[Piratis]

I have NEVER asked for total equlity at all levels on everything. I have explained time and again where I think there should be equlity and where there should not, in plain and simple terms. Just as regulalry you claim I demand total equality on everything, with the latest example being a few days ago.

You did? Where is the post, because I guess I missed it. Maybe it was done more recently when I was not following all threads very closely.

What I remember is that when we discussed the matter some months(?) ago you didn't accept that this equality (and hence blocking power) should be on specific predefined matters. Have you changed your stance since then?

But if it is done to you it is propaganda.

If your point is that if what is done is unintentional then it means it is not propaganda then I accept it. This can be the case with 2fan, but I don't think the banner that was prepared by an association was just a mistake. Do you?

[erolz]

You did? Where is the post, because I guess I missed it. Maybe it was done more recently when I was not following all threads very closely.

I have made my position clear on this point repeatedly, time and again, recently and way back into the past, and yet you continue to claim I have said something I have never said (repeatedly). Not just on this issue but on many others.

What I remember is that when we discussed the matter some months(?) ago you didn't accept that this equality (and hence blocking power) should be on specific predefined matters. Have you changed your stance since then?

You have frequently accused me of saying I want total equality at all levels, even though I have never said this - something you have taken 2fan to task for (alledgedly) doing to you once. The most recent examples is here (in a thread you posted to earlier tonight!).

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... sent#45139

Come on Piratis how many times have we had this discussion? Have I not made my views totaly clear and explict in the past. For me poltical decision that affect the two communites differently should require seperate consent from each and those that do not should not. Simple and clear and often stated by me. For me our differences are that you want to offer these things as 'gifts' from GC to TC and refuse to accept we have any right to them or basis that they are a right. Secondly you want a (small) predefined list of areas we will have equality on and I want a set of principles to determine what areas we have equality on. The argument between us has never been about me wanting total equality on everything and at all levels and you wanting it at some and not others, and to be honest that you can present it as such after all the words typed and times we have been round this is both mystifying and depressing to me.

That was two day ago !

Other times in the past I have made this view clear and explicit include (but are certainly not all the times I have made this view clear and explicit)

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ites#17326

My principal for this is cleary stated and I have stated it many many times here in the past. Basically for those decisions that affect each community differently they should require seperate acceptance from each community. For those that affect the two communites equally there is no need for seperate majorites in each community

and again here - too long to quote but you should read the link
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... sent#23092

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... sent#15366

I want GC to control GC affairs. I want TC to control TC affairs. At the central state level where decisions are made that affect both commuites equally then I am happy for it to be based on a simple majority of the two combined communites and where these decisions affect the two communites differently I want each to have to consent to the changes seperately?

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... nsent#6474

What it means to me in practice is that any decision in Cyprus that is likely to affect the GC community differently to the TC community (like language, or enosis or more realisticaly the example that seeks to ban or limit foreign investment from non EU countries) should require the seperate consent of the two communites equally. Decisions that affect TC and GC in the same way should be made on a straight numerical vote of all Cypriots. Decisions that affect only the TC community (or GC community) should be made by that community.

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... rate#23087

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... rate#16943

We have been over this exact same ground so many times before. Once again. Where a decsion affects the two communites differently then there should be seperate consent from each community. Where a decsion affects both communites the same there should be a simple majority vote.

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... rate#14852

I do not want on state one vote on ALL issues. I basically want it on those issues that affect the two communites differently.

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... rate#14482

I want us to first create a senario whereby a GC numerical majority can not do anything that affetcs TC differently to GC without the consent of the TC community, as a matter of right and not as a mtter of 'hope they do not do these things'.

and again here

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... erate#7036

For those issues where the effect of the decision would have markedly different effects and meaning for the two communites then some form of consent from both should be required. For those decisions that affect the two communites in the same way then seperate consent from the two communites should not be required.

These are probably not even the majority of times I have made my clear and explicit view know but just a sample. I have repeatedly made it clear that I do not require political equality on all issues and given a simlple and clear defintion of where I do think there should be equality and where there should not. Yet even as recently as a couple of days ago you claim that I want (and have said I want) equality on everything. I am pointing this out in the context of your accusation to 2fan that he said you said theings you never said and that to do so it propaganda. It is not just on this issue alone that you do EXACTLY the thing you accuse 2fan off. Some more example of you doing this can be found here - less than a week ago

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ords#44534

Again the above is just the most recent example where you have accused me of saying things I have never said. There are many other examples where you have done this to me before (and others as well), yet you attack 2fan for doing this very thing - and he made it clear that he was saying the 'impression' you posts give and has only done it once - and talk of his actions as being 'propaganda'.

So what is going on here Piratis? Do you really expect me to take you opening lines in your post at face value?

You did? Where is the post, because I guess I missed it. Maybe it was done more recently when I was not following all threads very closely.

Like you are surprised that I had made my position clear in the past? Like you really sincerely were not aware that I had done so? If you are sincere then the only explaination I can think off is that you have a memory problem or that there are more than one poster using your log in. Another plausible explaination is that you know very well that I have made my views clear and that what you claim I have said is not what I have actualy said and you are doing it with intent.

If your point is that if what is done is unintentional then it means it is not propaganda then I accept it.

My point is Piratis that you personaly and repeatedly shown an ability to claim that people have said things they have not actually said, seemingly regardless of the times they have made their views clear and yet you apparently see no 'hypocrasy' in attacking someone who you think has done this to you and use terms like 'propaganda'.

Now I have only gone to all the time and effort to dig out the examples above and make this long and tedious post because sometimes you make reasoned and constructive posts. However other times you show an amazing ability to shown a 'holier than thou' self rightgeous lecturing attitude to other posters. Yet (repeated) other times you show a disturbing use of the language of violence and threat of violence and other times (again repeatedly) you have shown down right blantant racism against Turks. So again I have to ask - what is going on here? Are you actualy more than one poster? Any value or positive elements (re reconcillation) there may be in some of your post are for me simply sunk under the sheer weight of your hyprocrital self rightgeousness, aggression and in the past blatant racism.

[Piratis]

Erolz, you are just playing with words. Apparently you have a lot of time to waste on this, but you always totally avoid the essence.

In order not to waste my time again, I will go directly into the point:

If you accept that TCs shouldn't have political equality and blocking power on everything but you also reject that the areas of this equality should be predefined, then tell me how in practice this will happen.

Tell me how in practice the majority of the population of Cyprus can take a decision that the majority of TCs happen to disagree with.

For example lets take this example that you gave:

Issue like the age of consent and the age of franchise and the age of a right to driving licesense are all issues that for me affect the two commuites equaly and thus would not require seperate consent.

Lets say the majority of Cypriots in general want this age to be 18, but for some reason the 60% of TCs insist that the age should be 20.
Tell me how in practice the TC majority will not have the ability to stop the will of the general majority if we don't have a predefined list of areas in which the TCs can have this kind of equality and blocking power.

In the past you said something like "independent arbitration" when such disagreements come. But this doesn't give more power to the GCs than to the TCs, does it? So it is again 50%-50%.

So after all these posts of yours I am still waiting to tell me how in practice the 82% will in some areas have more power than the 18%.

[erolz]

Firstly you totaly avoid my point in this thread and reason why I had to show how many times I have said x and you yet you still claim I am saying Y. My point is how can anyone have a resoned and resasonable argument with you when you not only behaved in this way, regularly and consistently over times, with an air of 'what me?' surpise and innocence when it is pointed out to you, whilst at the same time accusing others of doing it to you?

Erolz, you are just playing with words.

Again with the accusations to others of something you yourself do to the extreme. How many times have you claimed to 'just' want a 'normal' democracy and one person one vote, when you know that in practice this will deliver control of everything to GC alone?

In order not to waste my time again, I will go directly into the point:

This doesnt warrant a comment.

If you accept that TCs shouldn't have political equality and blocking power on everything but you also reject that the areas of this equality should be predefined, then tell me how in practice this will happen.

You mean tell you , yet again, how this could work in practice? The alternative to a predefined list of areas, which is insufficent because it is impossible to fortell in what areas a GC majority might use its dominance to enforce legisaltion on TC against their will that affects TC in a materialy different way to GC, is a 'set of principles' like those that I have given.

Tell me how in practice the majority of the population of Cyprus can take a decision that the majority of TCs happen to disagree with.

Firstly in practice on poltical decisions that do not affect the two communites in a materialy different way there is no logical reason to suspect that peoples views will split on GC/TC lines. It is only on issues that affect one community differently to the other that there is likely to be a GC / TC divide on wishes.

For example lets take this example that you gave:

Issue like the age of consent and the age of franchise and the age of a right to driving licesense are all issues that for me affect the two commuites equaly and thus would not require seperate consent.

Lets say the majority of Cypriots in general want this age to be 18, but for some reason the 60% of TCs insist that the age should be 20.
Tell me how in practice the TC majority will not have the ability to stop the will of the general majority if we don't have a predefined list of areas in which the TCs can have this kind of equality and blocking power.

Firstly your hypothetical example is unrealistic. Why would a majority of GC want one age but a majority of TC want another? The spread of views between the communites would be split accross a range of opinion in both communites precisely because the issue is not one that affects each community in a materialy different way. Even if by some bizzare set of circumstances there was a split of opinions based on GC / TC ethnicity, then under my system before the TC community could block such legislation they would have to show how it would affect the TC community in a materialy different way. How could this argument possibly be made for the age of consent? On what basis could the TC community argue that it affect TC differently to GC? The simple answer is they could not argue or show this because such legisaltion does not affect the two communites in a materialy different way.
In reverse, despite the number of times we have discussed this in the past, you have yet to explain to me how under your system the TC community could protect itslef from legislation that DID affect the two communites in a materialy different way - like the example I give re legislation restricting foreign investment from non EU countires. Presumably this is becuase your system would offer the TC community NO protection from such legislation, imposed on them against their will by a GC political majority.

In the past you said something like "independent arbitration" when such disagreements come. But this doesn't give more power to the GCs than to the TCs, does it? So it is again 50%-50%.

A set or principles does not mean total equality on everything. It defines the areas where there IS total equality and where there is NOT total equality.

So after all these posts of yours I am still waiting to tell me how in practice the 82% will in some areas have more power than the 18%.

And so we come back to the actual point of my post. Namely that it does not matter how many times I have explained this or how clearly because you simply ignore such explainations and repeatedly accuse me of saying I want total equality of everything (and moan about others doing this too you). There is apparently no point in trying to make logical and well reasoned arguments with you over such issues for you will and do just ignore them. This then in conjunction with your 'self rightgeous' attitude makes such discussion pointless (as well as tedious and frustrating) and only makes me more convinced that we (TC community) need real effective protections from GC political dominance.