Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Why are we arguing figures again, the size does not lessen the impact or importance we should all be ashamed of the refugees and deaths both is 1963 and 1974 and leave it at that.

I agree with this, but I should also add 1957-1959, and earlier. Deaths, oppression and suffering in Cyprus didn't start in the 60s for most Cypriots.

But are you really willing to do what you preach Viewpoint?

Personally I have no problem to leave the past and the blame game behind, because I don't want to punish anybody. Therefore I really have nothing to gain from it because I don't expect any Turkish Generals to go to jail for what they did, or to punish Turkey or the TCs for their past actions against us. Neither I expect to gain land, power or anything else on the loss of Turks and TCs. Furthermore I have nothing to gain from hate between the two communities, because part of the solution is the true reunification of the people, without any of the racist discriminations of the past.

What I want is an independent, democratic Cyprus, where all citizens are equal, just like every other normal democratic country in the world. What I want is to address the problems, illegalities and human rights violations of today, without looking into the past for excuses.

On the other hand Viewpoint (and Zan) your whole argument is based on blame game from the past. You are trying to show by using some tiny part of history, which you exaggerate and distort to fit your needs, that GCs are the "evil race" that has to be punished, while the TCs and Turks should gain on our loss. You want to gain land and power on our expense by blackmailing us and forcing us to accept some new agreement that will be much better for you and much worst for us since the last one. Furthermore you want to fuel hate between the two communities in order to support the argument that the two communities can not live together and should be separated.

So when you are playing the blame game, trying to convince others that the GCs are the "evil race" that deserves to be punished, and the TCs are the "innocents" that deserve to have gains of land and power on the expense of the "evil" GCs, then what do you expect from us? Not to respond? We are involuntary dragged into your game.

[Oracle]

Again I would like to acknowledge consultation with a more learned colleague .....

These people have lied and their lies have been exposed time and time again. The true figures are far from what is being reflected. Minority Rights Group International ( www.minorityrights.org ), who gave a biased interpretation of the Cyprus conflict in the favour of the GCs even mentions:

Quote:
"An estimated 3,000 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots had been killed within a month."

Where do they mention it on their website? Can you provide a link? By stating "within a month" which Invasion are they reffering to? I or II or both together?

Are minorityrights.org a professional body counting organization, Zan? What credibility do they possess .... by what authority do they present these figures?

Where did they get their body count and dates from? Who did the estimating? They are very vague in their presentation ... plucked off some site perhaps?

Even in a figure of 3000, the time of deaths during the coup is included. Here are just a few other credible journals that have reported on the number of deaths during the coup:

Die Zeit, 30 August 1974
Quote:
"In the four days that followed the coup, an estimated 2000 people, known to be ardent supporters of Makarios were killed. Their names were later added to those killed during the subsequent Turkish invasion."

Die Zeit, 30 August 1974 ...

That EXACT sentence comes from "Cyprus: A Troubled Island
By Andrew Borowiec" (pub. 2000).

Something fishy here! Please use your famous research skills to find the truth of the matter.

Interestingly, Borowiec does not have a reference to who counted the bodies ..... and most importantly, the precise details of when and where these people met their deaths.

Another issue that would reveal the truth of the matter is "what type of bullets were found in these bodies"?

Did the coupists and GCs and invading Turks all use the same types of bullets ?

The number of dead and missing as a consequence of the coup have been reflected directly on to the Turkish Peace Operation and multiplied by some imaginary factors to manipulate and distort realities. Here are undisputable resources pointing to this along with a relevant confession by the GC leader:

Ambassador Nelson Ledsky sworn testimony before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 17 April 1991
Quote:
"Most of the missing persons disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson."

Who is Nelson Ledsky ? Is he from "Turkish Policy Quarterly"?
http://www.turkishpolicy.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=78

OK, he has spoken about 'most of the missing persons', ie most of the missing 1600 ? What does he have to say about the non-missing, you know the 6,000 dead ? It would be nice to know where Mr. Ledsky got his numbers from.

GC President Glafkos Clerides, Cyprus Mail, 27 October 1995
Quote:
" Following a study of 487 of the 1,619 cases of missing Greek Cypriots by the Attorney-General's office, 96 people were found to have died in action."

OK, so 96 that were counted as part of the 1600 missing are found to be part of the 6000 dead. I don't think that changes the ORDER OF MAGNITUDE.

As it was I rounded down to 1,500 ..... so you are just disputing figures that you yourself are using ...

What say you and what punishment for the fibber of the year????

I have not fibbed, I have summarised with the best available data .... you suggested otherwise but your sources have proved less credible ....

Any "fibber" prizes still remain yours Zan ... Remember your classic:

Feb 10, 2008
109 villages either totally or partially destroyed.....

Or what about the classic from the magnificent journalist Ata Atun, for his "600 innocent Turkish Cypriot men, women and children were ruthlessly slaughtered in one single night". Brilliant lie!

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I agree with this, but I should also add 1957-1959, and earlier. Deaths, oppression and suffering in Cyprus didn't start in the 60s for most Cypriots.

So what is your point here, are you saying that who ever started the suffering is to blame?

But are you really willing to do what you preach Viewpoint?

Personally I have no problem to leave the past and the blame game behind, because I don't want to punish anybody. Therefore I really have nothing to gain from it because I don't expect any Turkish Generals to go to jail for what they did, or to punish Turkey or the TCs for their past actions against us. Neither I expect to gain land, power or anything else on the loss of Turks and TCs. Furthermore I have nothing to gain from hate between the two communities, because part of the solution is the true reunification of the people, without any of the racist discriminations of the past.

Should we forget the past? should we not learn from it and ensure that any new plans to unite will ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated and that safeguards are firmly put in place to deter either side from pursuing hidden agendas? All we want is to live in peace and have an effective say in our own future where we will never be pushed to one side ever again.

What I want is an independent, democratic Cyprus, where all citizens are equal, just like every other normal democratic country in the world. What I want is to address the problems, illegalities and human rights violations of today, without looking into the past for excuses.

Could it be like the Swiss democratic example? a confederation? a BBF is another democratic example. Piratis in order for us to reach the goal you desire you have to come to terms with the fact that the TC and GC communities are equals like to halves of an apple and then decide how the balance can be found where both sides are comfortable enough to commit to a solution. You want to reach the ultimate ignoring that these 2 communities do not trust each other and that we need transition periods where both sides can exibit goodwill and understanding that will bring the trust necessary to build a better stronger united Cyprus.

On the other hand Viewpoint (and Zan) your whole argument is based on blame game from the past. You are trying to show by using some tiny part of history, which you exaggerate and distort to fit your needs, that GCs are the "evil race" that has to be punished, while the TCs and Turks should gain on our loss. You want to gain land and power on our expense by blackmailing us and forcing us to accept some new agreement that will be much better for you and much worst for us since the last one. Furthermore you want to fuel hate between the two communities in order to support the argument that the two communities can not live together and should be separated.

I dont have to do anything to fuel hate, GCs do a good enough job they are their own worst enemy and at this rate they will never win the trust of TCs, maybe they dont want to. You to contribute to this chain which fuels hate, do you realize this? but you are so arrogant you think you dont and you give the impression that you dont even care and that TCs have to accept everything you ssay as being 100% correct well hello no we dont we have our own viewpoint, fears and concerns and respond according, you have no right to dismiss these as being invalid or exaggerated in order not to have to deal with them, this only fuels mistrust.

So when you are playing the blame game, trying to convince others that the GCs are the "evil race" that deserves to be punished, and the TCs are the "innocents" that deserve to have gains of land and power on the expense of the "evil" GCs, then what do you expect from us? Not to respond? We are involuntary dragged into your game.

You to play the blame game very well and go back 500 years with no problems whatso ever but when we state what your father did to mine we are the ones causing problems, we are not lucky for guilty people here what we are looking for are answers and safeguards that will ensure that what happened aonly 40 years ago will never happen again, whats so wrong with that?

[Piratis]

Piratis

I agree with this, but I should also add 1957-1959, and earlier. Deaths, oppression and suffering in Cyprus didn't start in the 60s for most Cypriots.

So what is your point here, are you saying that who ever started the suffering is to blame?

If we wanted to find who has the most blame then obviously the one who started it all, and then who caused the most harm and for the most time would be the one with the most share of blame. But as I said our aim is not to appropriate blame because we do not seek to punish anybody, or gain on the loss of another. But if you want to go back to appropriate blame then you should at least do it in the right way.

But are you really willing to do what you preach Viewpoint?

Personally I have no problem to leave the past and the blame game behind, because I don't want to punish anybody. Therefore I really have nothing to gain from it because I don't expect any Turkish Generals to go to jail for what they did, or to punish Turkey or the TCs for their past actions against us. Neither I expect to gain land, power or anything else on the loss of Turks and TCs. Furthermore I have nothing to gain from hate between the two communities, because part of the solution is the true reunification of the people, without any of the racist discriminations of the past.

Should we forget the past? should we not learn from it and ensure that any new plans to unite will ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated and that safeguards are firmly put in place to deter either side from pursuing hidden agendas? All we want is to live in peace and have an effective say in our own future where we will never be pushed to one side ever again.

We shouldn't forget the past but the lessons we get from the past should be right ones.
An extremist GCs could come to the conclusion that in order to have peace in Cyprus and for Cypriots to gain their safety and rights, that 100s of thousands of TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. Sure, that would solve the problem of GCs, it would also make GCs richer by gaining on TCs lands. So maybe all GCs should support this "solution"? I think you would agree with me that such thing is not a solution.
Similarly an extremist TC can support a "solution" based on the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of GCs, which would give to those TCs more land and power than what belongs to them. I hope you would agree with me that this is not a solution either.

You can't expect to achieve peace by ethnically cleansing people, stealing their lands and violating their human and democratic rights. If thats what you think, then you didn't learn any lessons from the past.

The solution is human rights for all, democracy and equality among all citizens without racist discriminations.

What I want is an independent, democratic Cyprus, where all citizens are equal, just like every other normal democratic country in the world. What I want is to address the problems, illegalities and human rights violations of today, without looking into the past for excuses.

Could it be like the Swiss democratic example? a confederation? a BBF is another democratic example. Piratis in order for us to reach the goal you desire you have to come to terms with the fact that the TC and GC communities are equals like to halves of an apple and then decide how the balance can be found where both sides are comfortable enough to commit to a solution. You want to reach the ultimate ignoring that these 2 communities do not trust each other and that we need transition periods where both sides can exibit goodwill and understanding that will bring the trust necessary to build a better stronger united Cyprus.

VP, in a country those who are equal are the citizens. Dividing citizens along ethnic lines, and giving to some citizens proportionally more power than others is somehting racist.
In Switzerland the citizens of each canton own the great majority of the land of their canton. They didn't create their canton by stealing land and ethnically cleansing others. The TCs are an ethnic minority like every other ethnic minority that exists in almost every other country. They don't own a separate part of the country and they can't expect to own one by stealing it from others and ethnically cleansing its native people. TCs have to learn to live as equal Cypriot citizens, and stop trying to take land that does not belong to them in order to form a separate entity there.

On the other hand Viewpoint (and Zan) your whole argument is based on blame game from the past. You are trying to show by using some tiny part of history, which you exaggerate and distort to fit your needs, that GCs are the "evil race" that has to be punished, while the TCs and Turks should gain on our loss. You want to gain land and power on our expense by blackmailing us and forcing us to accept some new agreement that will be much better for you and much worst for us since the last one. Furthermore you want to fuel hate between the two communities in order to support the argument that the two communities can not live together and should be separated.

I dont have to do anything to fuel hate, GCs do a good enough job they are their own worst enemy and at this rate they will never win the trust of TCs, maybe they dont want to. You to contribute to this chain which fuels hate, do you realize this? but you are so arrogant you think you dont and you give the impression that you dont even care and that TCs have to accept everything you ssay as being 100% correct well hello no we dont we have our own viewpoint, fears and concerns and respond according, you have no right to dismiss these as being invalid or exaggerated in order not to have to deal with them, this only fuels mistrust.

I might sometimes react in kind to the hate propaganda that is thrown against us, I admit that. But why would I want to fuel hate? To gain what? It is your aim, partition, which is served with hate, not mine which is one united Cyprus with equal Cypriot citizens. So why would I want to fuel hate?

Your viewpoint it is somehting I know very well already. It is the arrogant extremist position I described above: "Lets ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of people, lets gain power and land on their loss, and everything would be great for us".
As I told you a GC extremist could say the same things as you say. He could also claim that after centuries of being prosecuted and oppressed by the Turks and after being unable to cooperate with them, the "solution" and a required "safeguard" would be to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of them, and take their land and their proportion of power. If you look at the "solution" in this one sided way, which safeguards yourself to the 100% and gives you gains, while at the same time you are taking away the rights and lands of others, then the result will be more of the same, and not a real and permanent solution.

So when you are playing the blame game, trying to convince others that the GCs are the "evil race" that deserves to be punished, and the TCs are the "innocents" that deserve to have gains of land and power on the expense of the "evil" GCs, then what do you expect from us? Not to respond? We are involuntary dragged into your game.

You to play the blame game very well and go back 500 years with no problems whatso ever but when we state what your father did to mine we are the ones causing problems, we are not lucky for guilty people here what we are looking for are answers and safeguards that will ensure that what happened aonly 40 years ago will never happen again, whats so wrong with that?

What is wrong is that you want to safeguard and benefit yourself by ethnically cleansing others, stealing their lands and violating their rights. Maybe we should also say that after suffering from the Turks nonstop for centuries, the "solution" should be to ethnically cleanse the TCs from Cyprus so we will finally have peace and safety? The invasion happened just 34 years ago, and the occupation happens today. Non of these would happen if there were no TCs in Cyprus. So should the solution be to ethnically cleanse TCs from Cyprus as a safeguard that what happened 34 years ago and what is happening today will never happen again? I am sure you agree with me that this is not a solution, even though it would solve the problem of GCs, and it would make GCs much safer.

[Oracle]

Thank you...Now you have done the research and know more than when you started......I will say again..This is not about the numbers because One is too many but about your sources and therefore your perceptions. The most being the number killed by the coupists which you have not included......The fact that mass murder was going on on the island before Turkey came. You are not interested in that though because it shows the real picture and the fear we TCs had that when they finished with you they would start on us...That is to say that we had no idea as to who they or you were...We could not distinguish who was friend or foe from how we were treated for ten years previous.

Zan,
I don't know much about military matters but I think there are some factors everybody agrees contributes to the outcome of a violent confrontation. Here are some of them. Feel free to add your own.

After so many wars and so much money poured into military institutions, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a spreadsheet somewhere which would calculate the probabilistic consequences of a conflict once the spreadsheet variables were assigned values. Let's have a closer look at these variables.

1. The NUMBER of COMBATANTS
The military minded people of this forum could answer this. How many coupists, anti-coupists, other GCs, TCs and Turks? And when?

How many GCs fought in the civil war?
And how many GCs fought the Turkish invasion?

2. KILLING MACHINES, KILLING MACHINE OPERATORS and BOMBS
The Turks had ships with cannons, aircraft with bombs, tanks, armoured vehicles, helicopters, artillery, napalm, machine guns, etc. and the trained killing machine operators that went with them.

When the GCs were fighting amongst themselves, what weapons did they have at their disposal and what did they use against each other?

Turkey came into the invasion prepared, and wholly premeditated ... how well-prepared were the GCs against the timing of the coup?

3. HATE
Of course Greek leftists and rightists hated each other. The civil war in Greece a generation earlier is proof of that. But did the leftists or rightists hate all GCs ?

However, the Turks hated ALL GCs Indignant Turkish soldiers wanting revenge for those thousands of "Turkish children murdered in bathtubs" ... from the variety and endless propaganda that they were force-fed.

4. OBJECTIVES
Ethnic-cleansing to achieve the long-awaited 40% ownership of Cyprus.

5. TRAINING
Trained killing machine operators. VP and others have extolled these virtues countless times.

6. DISCRIMINATION
During the course of the civil war, did or could GCs discriminate between friend or foe amongst themselves? Would they be cautious who they killed or was it no questions asked killing? But it might have been a fellow comrade!

Did the Turks discriminate amongst the GCs ? No all Greeks and GCs would have been fair game ... and easier to identify.

7. TIME
5 days is the duration from the 15th to the 20th July. What sort of casualties could the GCs inflict on each other in this period with the influence of factors mentioned above?

Zan dear, many others factors. Many other questions. Perhaps you would like to add your own factors that support your thesis that GCs killed more GCs.

You are not interested in that though because it shows the real picture and the fear we TCs had that when they finished with you they would start on us.

The real picture that is emerging is:

1. Why Turkey, WITHOUT QUESTION, actually endangered the TCs in the short term, with the choice she made in 1974

By declaring war on GCs ... they had effectively turned them into the enemy of the TC ... not just in terms of any "inter-communal" conflicts which had by 1974 effectively all ended, but real war situation enemies ... so that the GCs would have been well within their rights to defend themselves against not only Turks but also TCs ... and rightfully also go on the offensive too.

2. Why has the world declared the invasion illegal and the "TRNC" legally invalid.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16484

3. There is no credible evidence that Turkey was acting as a guarantor power ... only that it abused its position for its personal agenda, ethnic cleansing of GCs and appropriation of nearly half of Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

If we wanted to find who has the most blame then obviously the one who started it all, and then who caused the most harm and for the most time would be the one with the most share of blame. But as I said our aim is not to appropriate blame because we do not seek to punish anybody, or gain on the loss of another. But if you want to go back to appropriate blame then you should at least do it in the right way.

I will not respond to this as we appear to be going around in circles but ı will say that my aim is not to apportion blame but to learn from the past and take the necessary precautions to ensure that we do not repeat the same mistakes.

We shouldn't forget the past but the lessons we get from the past should be right ones.
An extremist GCs could come to the conclusion that in order to have peace in Cyprus and for Cypriots to gain their safety and rights, that 100s of thousands of TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. Sure, that would solve the problem of GCs, it would also make GCs richer by gaining on TCs lands. So maybe all GCs should support this "solution"? I think you would agree with me that such thing is not a solution.
Similarly an extremist TC can support a "solution" based on the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of GCs, which would give to those TCs more land and power than what belongs to them. I hope you would agree with me that this is not a solution either.

Piratis look, you keep churning over the same lines, how do you know for sure that if the shoe was on the other foot the GCs would not have used their power to eradicate us from the island, surely you cannot turn a blind eye today to how we were treated in the past, there are many ways to get rid of a population and from 1963 onwards GCs were using many of them, where were you then, no one was demanding equality for all citizens only because it was the TCs who were in the fire not the GCs. Military strength wise we have the upper hand and you know it so you have to argue your viewpoint that we did bad but you never ask why? You caused the current divide just as much as I did, so as we have said the blame is not on one side.

You can't expect to achieve peace by ethnically cleansing people, stealing their lands and violating their human and democratic rights. If thats what you think, then you didn't learn any lessons from the past.

This argument does not hold water as we TCs show on this forum that we are prepared to sort out our differences and resolve an outstanding problem, the division will remain until we agree on a comprehensive solution, this isn't very difficult to understand.

The solution is human rights for all, democracy and equality among all citizens without racist discriminations.

Will you be arguing so strongly when TCs are discriminated against or when we go to a government office to obtain our rights and find no one takes any interest, when my child cannot find a job because they do not speak Greek, or when the government decides to black list Turkey and not allow trade, or when I am visit the ECHR to obtain my basic rights, or when the seats in parliament have been filled by GC MPs, where will you be then laughing at my expense me thinks.

VP, in a country those who are equal are the citizens. Dividing citizens along ethnic lines, and giving to some citizens proportionally more power than others is somehting racist.
In Switzerland the citizens of each canton own the great majority of the land of their canton. They didn't create their canton by stealing land and ethnically cleansing others. The TCs are an ethnic minority like every other ethnic minority that exists in almost every other country. They don't own a separate part of the country and they can't expect to own one by stealing it from others and ethnically cleansing its native people. TCs have to learn to live as equal Cypriot citizens, and stop trying to take land that does not belong to them in order to form a separate entity there.

There are examples around the world where the ruling structure is divided along ethnic lines, over time where trust and understanding takes hold the need for these precautions reduces but for now we do have any trust for each other specific safeguards have to be put in place that will not allow one community to dominate the other.

Again you churn out the cleansing issue, you contributed to this so you should also be asking yourself why you made so many mistakes and disregarded a large section of your population.

I might sometimes react in kind to the hate propaganda that is thrown against us, I admit that. But why would I want to fuel hate? To gain what? It is your aim, partition, which is served with hate, not mine which is one united Cyprus with equal Cypriot citizens. So why would I want to fuel hate?

That's why I am trying to point out that you do promote hate and this may not be what you want or work in favor of your goal as you prove that we cannot agree anything with people who are despot and have very rigid opinions, who see our community as second class and therefore should have less rights than their own.

Your view of a united Cyprus with equal citizens is based on GC majority dominance.

Your viewpoint it is somehting I know very well already. It is the arrogant extremist position I described above: "Lets ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of people, lets gain power and land on their loss, and everything would be great for us".
As I told you a GC extremist could say the same things as you say. He could also claim that after centuries of being prosecuted and oppressed by the Turks and after being unable to cooperate with them, the "solution" and a required "safeguard" would be to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of them, and take their land and their proportion of power. If you look at the "solution" in this one sided way, which safeguards yourself to the 100% and gives you gains, while at the same time you are taking away the rights and lands of others, then the result will be more of the same, and not a real and permanent solution.

This argument is invalid as we do not know what you would do if you have the military might. You might have carried out the annihilation of the TCs as stated by the coupists who support your goal of enosis.

What is wrong is that you want to safeguard and benefit yourself by ethnically cleansing others, stealing their lands and violating their rights. Maybe we should also say that after suffering from the Turks nonstop for centuries, the "solution" should be to ethnically cleanse the TCs from Cyprus so we will finally have peace and safety? The invasion happened just 34 years ago, and the occupation happens today. Non of these would happen if there were no TCs in Cyprus. So should the solution be to ethnically cleanse TCs from Cyprus as a safeguard that what happened 34 years ago and what is happening today will never happen again? I am sure you agree with me that this is not a solution, even though it would solve the problem of GCs, and it would make GCs much

Who knows if you have the military capacity I am sure you would have attempted to carry out what you claim above, this makes me feel that I am right in wanting the Turkish army to continue protecting us as the undertones you convey are very real and without them who knows what position we would be in if were alive to tell the tale.

The safeguards are imperative to a solution otherwise TCs will not agree to anything and the north can become part of Turkey 100%, this way everyone loses but we can all say we did it together, we will not be a minority in a purely GC ruled country, noway.

[Nikitas]

""Most of the missing persons disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson."

And there you have the lie revealing itself. Sampson was appointed AFTER the most intense phase of the fighting, at the end of day 1 of the coup. There were no Sampson supporters as a group before the coup, Sampson was picked as a figure head president after Clerides and Triantafyllides refused to accept the post of president.

Lies and more lies and we must wonder why mr Ledsky was called to depose these lies.

[wallace]

Who is talking about minorities in GC ruled country? Only you are!!! And it is correct.....you will not be a minority. TC's will not exist at all within 2 generations. The North of Cyprus is being colonised by Turks from anatolia whilest TC's have allready fled the country to flee from the poverty. I would also choose for that solution. Be part of Turkey........but don't complain you are isolated and try to blame it on others. The blame is allways on the ones that make certain well over thought decissions like you rather being part of Turkey.

[Viewpoint]

Who is talking about minorities in GC ruled country? Only you are!!! And it is correct.....you will not be a minority. TC's will not exist at all within 2 generations. The North of Cyprus is being colonised by Turks from anatolia whilest TC's have allready fled the country to flee from the poverty. I would also choose for that solution. Be part of Turkey........but don't complain you are isolated and try to blame it on others. The blame is allways on the ones that make certain well over thought decissions like you rather being part of Turkey.

So? we are just as much Turkish as we are Cypriot is what you state a threat?, if it is its water off a ducks back, we will go back to our roots and you will lose 37% of Cyprus forever.

[Kikapu]

So? we are just as much Turkish as we are Cypriot is what you state a threat?, if it is its water off a ducks back, we will go back to our roots and you will lose 37% of Cyprus forever.

Forever is a very long time for you to be certain of anything VP. Remember, time does not stand still and chances will occur.!! But just to make sure that you can read the future, can you tell us with certainty what events will happen in Cyprus next week.?? You get that one right, and then I might go along with your "forever" predictions.!!