Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Piratis wrote:

If we go by examples, then you can not have a separate state at all. Can you give me an example since the UN and international law were created, that a country was formed by means of invasion and ethnic cleansing?

How about the "RoC".

[Piratis]

You asked for proof, and I gave you facts from your friends of the USA Library of Congress, and from your own journalist. And then you, the Bayrak guy, is telling me that I am the "propaganda machine"?

Seriously, you are the representative of Bayrak, the official propaganda machine of the pseudo state, you get paid to copy paste their crap in here, and then you tell me that I am "propaganda machine"??? Don't you have any shame on you?

[zan]

You asked for proof, and I gave you facts from your friends of the USA Library of Congress, and from your own journalist. And then you, the Bayrak guy, is telling me that I am the "propaganda machine"?

Seriously, you are the representative of Bayrak, the official propaganda machine of the pseudo state, you get paid to copy paste their crap in here, and then you tell me that I am "propaganda machine"??? Don't you have any shame on you?

Shows you how well your propaganda has worked that that idiot even quotes you.....

[Murataga]

You have killed 10s of thousands of GCs, with 6000 of them as recently as 1974.

Proove it.

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

From the USA Library of Congress (your friends)
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cytoc.html

Cyprus was facing a crisis on all fronts; for the first time the conservative pastoral society with its mostly rural population was forced to legalise abortion to cope with the sheer numbers of cases of rape against Cypriot women by the invading army. Amid the debris caused by extensive bombing, the human cost was phenomenally high;6,000 were killed, one third of all Cypriots lived dependent as refugees ...

From a recent article by your own Alkan Chaglar.
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=33767

So stop trying to exaggerate your own suffering and diminish ours in order to excuse yet more crimes and illegalities against us, just like you have done since the time you set your foot on this island.

I am really going to enjoy this one, so here goes:

(1) The source you put here is a publication of a policy-making institution. It is not neutral.

(2) The essay (and it is structured and written essentially as nothing else but that) bears no citation with sufficient detail to identify the referenced item uniquely. There is a bibliography at the end however citation is not given within the structure as to the specific source. We do not know if the authors (even given that they are neutral) have based there information on their personal research (no citation even at this) or the findings of one of the references in the bibliography, which in that case opens a can of worms since the references it cites needs to be examined carefully. For example, the source for the phrase could have well been taken from :

Cyprus: The Tragedy and the Challenge. Washington: American Hellenic Institute, 1975.

which is one of the references in the bibliography.

(3) Even if we were to neglect these outstanding challenges facing this controversial piece of cropped writing you put here, the careful reader will observe it is mentioned that it reads “Nicosians were put to death”. It is a well-documented fact that Cyprus was Venetian land and the Ottomans fought the Venetians and their supporters (which were not necessarily the GCs). Unless you prove that Nicosia comprised of GCs alone and the ones killed were only innocent GCs that didn’t fight with the Venetians even this controversial document will bear no reinforcement to your argument.

Following is a part from The Rise and Fall of the Cyprus Republic by Kyriacos C. Markides (Yale University Press) which is a book that heavily favors the GC side in the Cyprus conflict within the overall context. This book is also given in the list of the bibliography of the political institution you referenced:

“The Turkish Cypriot conquest can be thought of as a turning point in the evolution of Cypriot society. Its effects were tantamount to a true revolution, but a revolution imposed from the outside. The conquest brought about three fundamental changes in the Cypriot social structure whose effects are still deeply felt: (1) the destruction of European feudalism (mainly by Franks and Venetians) (2) the restoration of the Greek Orthodox church to its former position of dominance, and (3) the settlement on Cyprus of a sizable Turkish minority.

The Turks once they conquered Cyprus, either killed or expelled the European nobles. The feudal system was abolished and land was distributed to the former serfs, who were Orthodox Christians, and to the newly arrived Muslim settlers. The Turkish conquest, furthermore, created ethnic heterogeneity. Turkish migrants settled in Cyprus, and gradually a sizeable Turkish community was formed, eventually composing 18 percent of the total population.

Last, and the most significant, the Turkish conquest restored the Greek Orthodox church to its former princely status and endowed it with unprecedented secular and spiritual powers. The authority vacuum created by the abolition of the aristocratic order was filled by the church, which became the most central institution in Greek Cypriot society. The Turks recognized only Orthodoxy as the official non-Muslim religion of the island, and they persecuted the Catholics. In short, the Turks reversed the situation that existed under feudalism. In addition, the sultan vested the church with special administrative privileges, such as collecting state taxes and officially representing the Orthodox Greek s in Istanbul. The archbishop was elevated to the status of Ethnarc, national leader or political spokesman for the Greek population. Consequently, the church of Cyprus became under Turkish rule the most authoritative and powerful institution on the island. It has been said that during the eighteenth century the archbishop’s political authority was almost equal, if not superior, t that of the Turkish Governor (Ref. below)”

Claude D. Cobham, Exerpta Cypria (Cambridge, Eng.: Cambridge University Press, 1908), pp. 458-59

(4) But again let’s take this a step further and overlook all three aforementioned issues and assume that it is absolutely correct and 20000 GCs were killed for no good reason. How can an incident that took place almost five centuries ago justify what you are blamed to have done a several decades ago and not to mention that the ones that have committed the atrocities are not only living among you but leading you in the presidential office. The ones suffering from your crimes are the children, wives husbands and parents of people who are still alive today. They are the same people that are living under embargo for resisting the atrocities which you directed against them and they are Turkish Cypriots not the Yeniceris of the Ottoman. You have no logical or ethical standing when you are trying to match the suffering of the TC civilians with the controversial resources claiming historical myths about the death of the GCs by the Ottoman Army.

(5) Alkan Chaglar is a newspaper columnist by which you showing him as evidence constitutes “the” perfect evidence that you have no sense of the definition of citing a reference in a credible and scientific fashion. I can show you other Turkish Cypriot columnists writing that there have been only few innocent GCs killed in the Peace Operation and those were the ones that stood in the way of the Peace mission. Will you accept that?

The 6000 figure is an unethical lie (which you have resorted many times) to gain sympathy and distort realities. At this juncture, it is extremely important to underline that even the official state sources of the Greeks/GCs refrain from mentioning numbers of dead and simply try to manipulate by naming it at the "thousands". Here are the examples:

(a) Permanent Mission of Greece to the United Nations: ( www.greeceun.org )

"Moreover, thousands of people, including civilians, were killed or ill-treated by the Turkish invaders."

(b) The embassy of the illegal GC regime under "RoC" to the United States ( http://www.cyprusembassy.net )

"The human cost was immense. Thousands of Greek Cypriots were killed or maimed as a result of the actions of the invading Turkish army."

These people have lied and their lies have been exposed time and time again. The true figures are far from what is being reflected. Minority Rights Group International ( www.minorityrights.org ), who gave a biased interpretation of the Cyprus conflict in the favour of the GCs even mentions:

"An estimated 3,000 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots had been killed within a month."

Even in a figure of 3000, the time of deaths during the coup is included. Here are just a few other credible journals that have reported on the number of deaths during the coup:

Die Zeit, 30 August 1974

"In the four days that followed the coup, an estimated 2000 people, known to be ardent supporters of Makarios were killed. Their names were later added to those killed during the subsequent Turkish invasion."

Combat, Belgium, 25 July 1974

"It has been confirmed that during the days following the coup in Nicosia at least 2000 of Makarios`s supporters have either been killed in the fighting or executed"

The number of dead and missing as a consequence of the coup have been reflected directly on to the Turkish Peace Operation and multiplied by some imaginary factors to manipulate and distort realities. Here are undisputable resources pointing to this along with a relevant confession by the GC leader:

Ambassador Nelson Ledsky sworn testimony before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 17 April 1991

"Most of the missing persons disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson."

GC President Glafkos Clerides, Cyprus Mail, 27 October 1995

" Following a study of 487 of the 1,619 cases of missing Greek Cypriots by the Attorney-General's office, 96 people were found to have died in action."

Cyprus Mail, 3 March 1996

"(Greek) Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of atrocities during the 15th July coup in an attempt to downplay its contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame the Turkish invasion for all casualties. There can be no justification for any government that failed to investigate this sensitive humanitarian issue. The shocking admission by the Clerides government that there are people buried in Nicosia cemetery who are still included in the list of the "missing" is the last episode of a human drama which has been turned into a propaganda tool."

[zan]

Excellent Murataga!!!!!!!!


Lies have kept my people under seige for long enough....Let my people go.

[Piratis]

Murataga, you are disputing sources like the USA Library of Congress (and we know that USA is your friends and they would never write something against you if it was not true), and then you give as a source something that starts with "The Turkish Cypriot conquest...". The Turkish Cypriot Conquest???

The Turks oppressed us for 3 centuries and butchered us by the 10s of thousands, and this can be disputed only by the Turks who would dispute anything that doesn't suit them.

About the GCs that were killed by the coupists, sure, who said the opposite?
So how by telling me what I already know (that some GCs were killed during the coup) is disproving the fact that 6000 GCs were killed by the Turkish army?

Yes, during the intercommunal conflict TCs had victims and GCs as well. Some 100s from each side. And don't blame us that we started it, since your share of blame is at least as much.
Here is again from an anti-GC source:

The Turkish community was whipped into a frenzy by broadcasts from Turkey calling for the partition of Cyprus. Violence between the turks and Cypriots broke out in early June and climaxed when eight Greeks were massacred in a cornfield near the Turkish village of Geunyeli.
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/war.html

And here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 777#186777 I posted links to a BBC video about those events (watch Part 2 at around 12min 30 seconds for the beginning of inter-communal conflict)

So, the conclusion is the same:
The Turks can not use the past as an excuse for yet more crimes and illegalities against us today, since even during the past they were the ones committing the 99% of the crimes. So stop trying to diminish your crimes against us and exaggerate your own suffering, because such lame propaganda attempts will have no result for you.

[zan]

[pitsilos]

Excellent Murataga!!!!!!!!


Lies have kept my people under seige for long enough....Let my people go.

zan for president....

[BirKibrisli]

What is wrong with agreeing that both sides comitted terrible crimes,and appologise for it sincerely...???? What is wrong with accepting that we have been duped,fed fanatical nationalist bullshit,swollowed it whole and slaughtered our own people...??? What is wrong with admitting that we cannot change what happened in the past,but we can do something about the future...??? What is wrong with saying we learned our lessons from history and we will not repeat them...????Nobody will ever divide us again as one people one nation...We embrace democracy and human rights and personal liberty and freedom...We want to be left alone to run our own country with justice and equality...We are evolved human beings who know the right from wrong,and we will put all our intellectual and emotional and spiritual resourses to resurrect our homeland as an example of tolerance,respect,and equality...Don't you think that would get us closer to a just solution than arguing about who killed whom more and for how much longer??????????????????????????

[Viewpoint]

Birkibrisli

What is wrong with agreeing that both sides comitted terrible crimes,and appologise for it sincerely...???? What is wrong with accepting that we have been duped,fed fanatical nationalist bullshit,swollowed it whole and slaughtered our own people...??? What is wrong with admitting that we cannot change what happened in the past,but we can do something about the future...??? What is wrong with saying we learned our lessons from history and we will not repeat them...????Nobody will ever divide us again as one people one nation...We embrace democracy and human rights and personal liberty and freedom...We want to be left alone to run our own country with justice and equality...We are evolved human beings who know the right from wrong,and we will put all our intellectual and emotional and spiritual resourses to resurrect our homeland as an example of tolerance,respect,and equality...Don't you think that would get us closer to a just solution than arguing about who killed whom more and for how much longer??????????????????????????

Try to persuade Piratis and GCs like him to accept this viewpoint as you see from his posts he believes the more people you kill the more guilty you are, which is one of the most illogical arguements ever.

As for learning our lessons from the past I agree totally and it is infact my signature on this forum. To this end we should agree a series of safeguards to ensure that history does not repeat itself and neither community can impose their will on the other...