Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

I don't rembember if it is you or someone else who implied that being under EU control will legalise everything - whoever wrote it though, that was a foxy and misleading statement.

I was the one who said something like that but I didn't say that the EU will legalize everything. I was just trying to find practical solutions that would change people's lives before a solution. So I suggested that if we open the old Nicosia under the direction of the EU, both communities would have a legal airport without getting into disputes of legality/illegality or if it belongs to the RoC or the TRNC.

Obviously, you think like Papadopoulos that TCs want a solution for economic benefits so you want to keep TCs under isolation as long as they don't accept a solution that you consider "fair and functional". So, actually, you don't believe in confidence-building measures because you realize that these measures will make TCs and GCs lives better but you also believe that it will make TCs not want a solution (which I totally disagree).

The opposition of the GC authorities to these suggestions also serves to drive perceptions amongst EU partners and others that in reality it is an economic blockade of the north, designed to impoverish the population and blackmail it into submission - a form of 'economic apartheid by design' if you want. That may not be the reality of the situation, but the more vociferous the disagreement by GCs, the more it appears to others to be so.

You summarized it really well. And just look at it from a TC point of view? How can a TC realy trust the GC leadership that they want the well-being of TCs when all they try to do is economically suffocate TCs so TCs accept whatever thrown at them out of desperation? Is this how we're supposed to agree on a solution?

[MicAtCyp]

The despicable story of the defato-richman how to forcethe poor girl "prostitution" or "marriage". If the GCswho think like MicAtCyp constitute the majority among GCcommunity; I'm sure a solution will never be possible.And in case of a forced settlement, won't last long.Either the girl will escape once again or be killed bymean rascal.

Here we go once again seeing our friend Insan plunging into generalisations, issuing statements, drawing conclusions out of nowhere, and one out of 2 times losing his temper! Re gardas I think it's your turn to go on holidays....
Since obviously you disagree with what I said, do you mind telling us then, why the TCs want a solution? Is it because they love us?
And I don't mean you personally and a few other noble TCs, I mean about the TCs in general including those of Eroglu and Denktash.

Thus, flying into Ercan is no longer a prerequisite for a northern holiday. The longer this situation remains, the more I think that you'll see tour operators in the UK and elsewhere offering packages involving a transfer from Larnaca northwards.

I understand you fail to see the difference between flying directly to Tymbou than Larnaca. Here’s one of the many differences for your information. Flying to Larnaca gives us absolute control to know where they are going and where they are staying and sue the hell out the tour operator who takes tourists into stolen hotels.

As for the ports issue, yes it would aid the TCs economically, in the process making them more self-sufficient. But at the end of the day, exports from the north are going to be small beer, all estimates saythat the only desirable exports would be citrus products(valued at about €50m a year), that's hardly an economic renaissance.

Show us the estimates you are referring to.
Besides nobody can tell which levels this trade or other trades can reach.

Secondly it's not a matter of the volume of exports. It is a matter of giving legal status and accepting an illegal situation that will involve not only TCs but settlers as well. Can you imagine the implications when a GC refugee will go to Famagusta and will see the guy who is now using his gardens exporting the goods in a "legal" way?

The opposition of the GC authorities to these suggestions also serves to drive perceptions amongst EU partners and others that in reality it is aneconomic blockade of the north, designed to impoverish the population and blackmail it into submission - a for mof 'economic apartheid by design' if you want.

Our Eu partners must open their eyes and see the situation as it really is. We cannot allow anyone to use our properties to make money, no matter how stubborn he is starving himself to death instead of returning them. It is not us who is depriving the TCs the chance to prosper is they themselves through their political leadership and through the directives from Ankara. And this is exactly the situation today. Why should we feel pitty when just 9% of them today holds 37% of Cyprus. At least they should return what percentage-wise is not theirs.Did they ever do it, did they ever propose it?
If our EU parners get wrong perceptions, it is the job of our diplomats to teach them the reality.That's what we pay them for.

Read the following article and you tell me what this "at all costs" means. Is it our choice or their choice? Should we reward them for that, or should we get punished on their behalf.

Rauf Denktas: "Talat's mission is to preserve the 'Country's' independence at all cost"
Ankara Anatolia news agency (24.02.05) reports that the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mr Rauf Denktas has stated that the mission of the so-called Prime Minister of the occupation regime Mehmet Ali Talat is to preserve the "country's independence" at all cost ......

Ultimately, they don't have all the cards

I did not say they have all the cards. I said they have equally strong cards.

GC authorities should apply for the opening of the ports and airports in the north (under their recognised sovereignty, if anything this enhances the claim to the north rather than undermining it

Allowing the ports to open under EU control is the only stage at which RoC will excercise her recognised sovereignty.From there on the sovereignty at the Famagusta port is split to 33-33-33% between the legal state, the EU and the illegal occupational regime and 0%-50-50% between the EU and the occupational regime at the Tympou Airport. This by itself will ridicule both the sovoreignty of the Republic and EU. To give you an example suppose Asil Nadir who is now wanted in the UK wants to travel from Tymbou to Ankara. What can the EU do, what can the RoC do, other than give their licence to an internationally wanted criminal to pass? Ports my friend are not only for export, and not used only for commercial goods.They are also for imports, as well as for people, as well as for military likeS-300s (if you get what I mean).

If anything, it would also result in increased pressureupon Turkey and the TC authorities to return to the negotiating table.

We ve already seen where our hundreds of concessions just to bring them back to the table led us. Enough!! Now it's their turn.

but also to assist with the training of officials, with the development of joint legislation to ensure compatibility with EU rules.

The legislation about our properties and our human rights is there already, this is the one to apply first and not how big the cucumbers, or how round and same size the tomatos should be to be approved by the EU.

the simple fact remains that in any solution, a large number of settlers will be given leave to remain permanently, therefore they will become Cypriot citizens with all the rights that this entails.

I don't agree but for the sake of discusion lets accept that a limited number of settlers according to strict criteria will stay.
So how about starting from that then? Before any other measure is taken all people at the northern part be registered by the EU officials, each and every case examined separately, and those who comply with the EU laws and the human right clauses of the UN to stay, and the rest to leave immediately under EU supervision. Secondly who told you that we are oblidged to give citizenship to those who will stay? The right to stay for humanistic reasons, does not automatically give anyone citizenship right (including voting rights to a referendum).

Also, the likelihood is that much of the land they are currently working will remain under TC jurisdiction.Ultimately some of the tax revenue accruing from this will be returned to a federal administration and will thus benefit all.

Oh how nice !! Would you mind me coming to the UK and steal the property of some of your people so that I contribute to your tax system then? How about giving permanent stay rights to all the Sri Lankas, Philippinos, Indians, Pakistanis, Syrians etc to stay as well? What a naive argument from your end!

I know it's a hard pill to swallow and an extremely distasteful one for GCs, but partition is already solidified

It solidified because for 30 years they (including Turkey) had nothing to lose. Now they have everything to lose thats why it started melting down. Be patient...

probably the only political solution will involve a lessening of the de facto partition and establishment of a loose federation.

Wow, let me see the masks droping, let me see the masks droping one by one, the one after the other.... loose federation ha? Like the Anan plan right?
Is this the kind of stuff you are serving in this forum my dear? Well if the others swallow it, I don't.

PS.The first British guy I saw in this forum pretended to be an expert lawer, and all he tried to do was to persuade us to forget about human rights. After a few posts, been unable to reply he disappeared. Then came another one who was trying to persuate us that partition is the best option. This one left the forum weeping. Now we have you trying to convince us for a loose Federation and confidence measures a number of which will have no other effect than solidify partition.Guess what the next one will try to do....

[MicAtCyp]

Obviously, you think like Papadopoulos that TCs want a solution for economic benefits ....

Metecyp I asked Insan, I am asking you too:

TELL ME THE REASON WHY THE TCs WANT A SOLUTION

[metecyp]

TELL ME THE REASON WHY THE TCs WANT A SOLUTION

Ok, here are some of the noneconomical reasons.
1- Live in a legal and recognized state.
2- Get rid of the uncertainty in terms of properties in the north
3- Get rid of the Turkish influence in the north so TCs can finally make decisions on their own (with GCs of course)
4- Get rid of the heavy military structure in the north that affects every aspect of life in the north. Young TCs do not have to go to the military anymore.
5- Be able to participate in international events (like UEFA as an example).
6- Stop the incoming Turkish settlers.
7- Create the environment for many TCs not to migrate to other countries and TCs already migrated to return back to Cyprus.

TCs need a solution in order to survive on the island so don't tell me that we want solution just to "steal" what you earned in many years

[cannedmoose]

PS.The first British guy I saw in this forum pretended to be an expert lawer, and all he tried to do was to persuade us to forget about human rights. After a few posts, been unable to reply he disappeared. Then came another one who was trying to persuate us that partition is the best option. This one left the forum weeping. Now we have you trying to convince us for a loose Federation and confidence measures a number of which will have no other effect than solidify partition.Guess what the next one will try to do....

I'll respond to the substance of your post in due course, not having time to do so at this moment. However, given your tone, I could not ignore this final section...

MicAtCyp, I'm not pretending to be an expert lawyer or an expert anything, although my career path will ultimately take me into the realms of such labels. Nor am I attempting to persuade anyone to sign up to anything... the purpose of a forum is to allow each individual to express their points of view and to have a reasoned debate with others on these. I'm not in favour of solidifying partition, in fact the point of this thread is to discuss exactly the opposite. If anything, it is the hardline position that you often display that will cement the partition of the island.

As for the potential of me 'leaving weeping', no chance re. For as long as this forum remains open, I'll be here (as long as admin doesn't object! )

[Alexandros Lordos]

Cannedmoose,

may I first say that this is an excellent thread, which has produced very useful material - I hope you can find a way to utilise all this.

(To everyone else: My apologies for disappearing over the last few days, I've been drowning under a ton of work)

OK, I am not sure if I can think of five bullet points for each side, but I will do my best:

Things the GCs can do:

1. Stop looking down on TCs with the arrogant approach that "We have the legal state and you do not even exist". Learn humility from the fact that the RoC is itself not operating to its full constitutional capacity, since TCs are not involved in its administration.

2. Stop exaggerating about the number of settlers. It is ridiculous to be saying that there are two settlers for every Turkish Cypriot, and it undermines the respect of GCs for the TC community.

3. Stop looking down on the TC leadership in an attempt to "discuss with Ankara directly". This approach totally denies the intercommunal aspect of the Cyprus Problem, and continues the same old lie that "the whole thing began in 1974".

Things the TCs can do:

1. Stop ignoring GC concerns about the Annan Plan, and start accepting that GCs have legitimate problems with the proposal that we had on the table last April. Stop insulting GCs by saying that "we were led to vote "No", like sheeps, by Papadopoulos".

2. Stop focusing so much on direct trade, and start focusing on measures that will bring the two communities closer together. Take the proposal for Famagusta seriously, open up more checkpoints and encourage intra-island trade and bicommunal business ventures. Also, stop asking for "visas" at the checkpoints.


My apologies if I have provoked anyone ...

[metecyp]

My apologies if I have provoked anyone ... Rolling Eyes Smile

I really like your proposals. As for your proposals to TCs, I completely agree with both points. There's a lack of interest in the north for GC concerns in the Annan plan and I always complained about this. I also criticized Talat when he rejected the Famagusta port deal.

[cannedmoose]

Cannedmoose, may I first say that this is an excellent thread, which has produced very useful material - I hope you can find a way to utilise all this.

Thanks re, it's been useful to me too.

[magikthrill]

Alexandre as always excellent points

I am kinda weary about this though:

3. Stop looking down on the TC leadership in an attempt to "discuss with Ankara directly". This approach totally denies the intercommunal aspect of the Cyprus Problem, and continues the same old lie that "the whole thing began in 1974".

Although I definitely agree that GCs should be in direct talks with TCs , do you think that if this was done on a continuous basis, maybe Turkey could claim since you talk with the north you recognize it so life the damn embargoes?

Anyway mates an hour till birthday #21 here in west coast USA so I have to get ready and Ill be back after I recover

[Bananiot]

3. Stop looking down on the TC leadership in an attempt to "discuss with Ankara directly". This approach totally denies the intercommunal aspect of the Cyprus Problem, and continues the same old lie that "the whole thing began in 1974".

I think, Alexandros, that this is another indication that Papadopoulos does not want a solution. He is asking for things that he very well knows that they cannot be accepted by the other side. He gave a grand rejectionist speech during his Party Conference on Saturday. He uses the old Kyprianou/A. Papandreou/Dountas trick of setting conditions that must be satisfied before talks begin, knowing fully well that no one will buy. Lets be realistic. With Papadopoulos at the helm there can be no solution. Its as simple as that!