Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

askimwos- you asked:

If you can answer these questions in a logical manner then I will applaud all the propaganda that you are spreading as the real truth.

I am not trying to pose anything about anyone and this is not propaganda. These are clearly referenced documents from credible European Journals which the GC openly made. I am just quoting the man; Makarios` words speak for themselves..

" ...To me independence is a comprimise. In other words, if I had a free choice between ENOSIS and independence, I would support ENOSIS."

Please, a little dignity for God’s sake…

My intention is to show that although illegal, GCs wanted and fought for ENOSIS (both politically and through violence); and they did this over the option of living as FREE Cypriots with their fellow TCs. Perhaps the most popular GC leader of all times, a one with the greatest support of the GCs is openly saying he (representing GCs) would prefer ENOSIS over FREEDOM. What more is there left to say?

The way you ask your questions to me clearly shows that anything that opposes what perhaps you have been fed with will automatically be claimed as propaganda material. It is evident that even if Makarios himself got up from his grave and told to your face what I`ve quoted above, you`d still call them Turkish propaganda. Makarios wanted ENOSIS, EOKA-B wanted ENOSIS, GCs wanted ENOSIS, and Greece wanted ENOSIS. Yet ENOSIS was effectively barred in the constitution of the RoC. The disagreement and the following conflict were over how and when it was to be achieved, and who was to lead it, make no mistake about this.

Piratis asked-
And? Are you going to tell us that Denctash, Kucuk and the TC leadership never spoke about Taksim back then?

How can they not when your leader openly states he prefers that the island becomes a subject of Greece instead of being independent?

And why do you bring back this topic over and over?

I will bring it up as much as it is necessary to make everyone understand that the true illegality in the Cyprus conflict was initiated by the lunatic crusade of ENOSIS and TCs were the only ones resisting this illegal effort.

[Murataga]

If it is something you don`t like the material is Turkish propaganda (despite the presence of undisputable reference and documentation), and the person stating it is a moron? Is this the democracy they teach you in the GC aAdministered Cyprus?

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

the presence of undisputable reference and documentation

I would beg to differ on this. You paste the odd sentence here and there, most of which are taken completely out of context...and you call this 'undisputable reference and documentation' like your just throwing words around. You have not provided any credible references from your quotes, like most of the Turkish propaganda out there.

Also,

and the person stating it is a moron? Is this the democracy they teach you in the GC aAdministered Cyprus?

Glass houses mate. Better to be called a moron than shot dead or put to jail like in Turkey dont you think?

[Piratis]

I wonder how many threads have already been opened by Tcs in this forum about enosis and how many more we will see....

They don't have many topics to choose from. If we were in their position and we were looking for excuses of why TCs should be punished and have their human rights violated then we would have a million topics to talk about that would increase every day.

Ok Piratis tell us what the TC's are guilty of?

The coup made by junta of Athens in Cyprus was used as an excuse by Turkey to invade Cyprus and punish Greek Cypriots with the intescreminate killing of 6000, ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people and an illegal occupation that goes on for more than 32 years.

So if a coup that lasted 5 days (and which until the beginning of the Turkish invasion had not touched a single TC) has a share of blame that carries the above punishment, then you tell me what the share of blame and the punishment should be for those 6000 dead, 200.000 refugees and 32 years of occupation?

so thats with 74-2007. Thats over 32 years and just by itself is larger by anything the GCs have ever done to TCs. This is why the TCs are trying to exagerate their own suffering by posting every casualty they had. I hope you do not need to see the names and photos of the 1000s of people that were killed and the 100s of thousands of people that were forced out of their homes to realize this.

Now lets go to your favorite 63-74
TCs had not accepted independence and they were promoting taksim
They used their vetos to bring the country into stalemates trying to make it to collapse
They withdrew from the RoC parliament and they started to fight for partition
TMT and other Turkish terrorists killed 100s of innocent Greek Cypriots

(Yes, during those 5 years (63-68) GCs had an equal share of blame as well. As you see even if this post is about the guild of TCs I still point it out. But maybe I shouldn't and just write one sided distorted versions like Zan and VP and Murtaga?)

55-59
The majority of Cypriots wanted union with Greece, something which have been their democratic right. The TCs instead sided with the colonialists and turned against GCs to violently suppress their rights. In fact the first major episode between GCs and TCs happened when many GCs were massacred by TCs during that time. This is when in fact the intercommunal conflict had started.

And this is just for the last 50 years. Even without going further in history, which we perfectly could if we would just be looking for lame excuses to commit crimes against TCs like they do to us, you can see that the share of blame is way more for the TCs.

[Piratis]

Piratis asked-
And? Are you going to tell us that Denctash, Kucuk and the TC leadership never spoke about Taksim back then?

How can they not when your leader openly states he prefers that the island becomes a subject of Greece instead of being independent?

And why do you bring back this topic over and over?

I will bring it up as much as it is necessary to make everyone understand that the true illegality in the Cyprus conflict was initiated by the lunatic crusade of ENOSIS and TCs were the only ones resisting this illegal effort.

Sorry my friend but Dentash and the rest of your leadership never stopped talking about taksim. Not even for a day they accepted independence. So don't tell me they spoke about Taksim because Makarios spoke for enosis. Partition has been your dream since the 50s so cut the lame excuses.

The illegality was initiated by not allowing the majority of Cypriots to do what they wanted: unite with Greece.
According to the UN resolution about decolonization this has been a perfectly legitimate option: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

So don't tell me that because you forced us to sign away this right of ours we could not even talk about it. There was absolutely nothing illegal about talking or thinking about it so cut your crap.

What is illegal is the occupation of Cyprus by Turkey and the pseudo state she created in the north part of Republic of Cyprus.

[askimwos]

askimwos- you asked:

If you can answer these questions in a logical manner then I will applaud all the propaganda that you are spreading as the real truth.

I am not trying to pose anything about anyone and this is not propaganda. These are clearly referenced documents from credible European Journals which the GC openly made. I am just quoting the man; Makarios` words speak for themselves..

" ...To me independence is a comprimise. In other words, if I had a free choice between ENOSIS and independence, I would support ENOSIS."

Please, a little dignity for God’s sake…

My intention is to show that although illegal, GCs wanted and fought for ENOSIS (both politically and through violence); and they did this over the option of living as FREE Cypriots with their fellow TCs. Perhaps the most popular GC leader of all times, a one with the greatest support of the GCs is openly saying he (representing GCs) would prefer ENOSIS over FREEDOM. What more is there left to say?

The way you ask your questions to me clearly shows that anything that opposes what perhaps you have been fed with will automatically be claimed as propaganda material. It is evident that even if Makarios himself got up from his grave and told to your face what I`ve quoted above, you`d still call them Turkish propaganda. Makarios wanted ENOSIS, EOKA-B wanted ENOSIS, GCs wanted ENOSIS, and Greece wanted ENOSIS. Yet ENOSIS was effectively barred in the constitution of the RoC. The disagreement and the following conflict were over how and when it was to be achieved, and who was to lead it, make no mistake about this.

Piratis asked-
And? Are you going to tell us that Denctash, Kucuk and the TC leadership never spoke about Taksim back then?

How can they not when your leader openly states he prefers that the island becomes a subject of Greece instead of being independent?

And why do you bring back this topic over and over?

I will bring it up as much as it is necessary to make everyone understand that the true illegality in the Cyprus conflict was initiated by the lunatic crusade of ENOSIS and TCs were the only ones resisting this illegal effort.

Murataga, you have canningly once again avoided the specific questions and talked even more bullshit. You qouted Makarios saying that if he was free to choose he would have chosen Enosis. What you forgot to mention is that Makarios said this in an attempt to set the things right and talk against EOKA B that wanted Enosis and portrait him as a traitor because he made it clear that this cannot be achieved and that there are agreements that need to be honoured. Makarios spoke about the desirable and the achieveable and clearely stated that Enosis was not an option and independence should be embraced by all.

This is the reason that EOKA B and the Athens Junta viewed him as a traitor and the obstacle towards enosis and hence the numerous attempts to kill him. Once this was not achieved they proceeded to two failed attempts for a coup until 1974 that they suceeded.

This is what actually happened so please stop spreadsing what you have been fed. Otherwise please give us your version of events as to why the attempts on Makarios life and why the coup happened.

[BirKibrisli]

I too am confused regarding the motivation behind dragging the Enosis issue around the forum like this,but since it has been raised,yet again,let us try to be constructive and get something positive out of it...

I'd like to hear from GCs what they think the reasons were behind the desire for Enosis. And how did it come about anyway?
I am specially interested to hear your opinions on outside/foreign interference to bring the Enosis desire about...

And I'd like to hear from TCs,what they would've desired naturally,had they been 82-18 in the majority back in the 50s,and were ruled by successive foreign empires for the past 3000 years???

[iceman]

I'd like to hear from GCs what they think the reasons were behind the desire for Enosis. And how did it come about anyway?

The jpg in the link is from a book writen in 1880 by a Scottish lady named Mrs. Scott-Stevenson the wife of captain Andrew Scott-Stevenson Forty Second Royal Highlanders "The Black Watch" (first) Civil Commissioner of Kyrenia

The last paragraph on the first page and the first on the second should answer your above question...

http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 318lt5.jpg

[Piratis]

I'd like to hear from GCs what they think the reasons were behind the desire for Enosis. And how did it come about anyway?
I am specially interested to hear your opinions on outside/foreign interference to bring the Enosis desire about...

Bir, back then out of the 100s of islands in Med sea non was independent. The other Greek islands when they were liberated from their foreign rulers they were joining the state of Greece. Crete did so not many years earlier.
For the great majority of Cypriots liberation = union with Greece, and they of course wanted liberation. At that time union with Greece was a perfectly legitimate demand considering that this was the desire of the great majority of the people. There was nothing criminal about it. However the TCs are taught to just hate this idea, so they can't get their heads around the facts of that era. For them "Enosis is evil" and everything happened because "GCs are evil". Thats what they taught them.

Beyond that I can also understand why TCs didn't want union with Greece. And If I was living back then and had the brains, education and knowledge that I have now and a proposal for a true independence existed then I would definitely support independence and not Enosis, since a true independence could be acceptable to an even larger majority of Cypriots, and could serve the interests of the Cypriot people better.

However as I explained, the concept of independence did not exist in the minds of Cypriots back then. I guess they considered it that it was not an option, and if we judge from the semi-independence they gave us and our foreign written constitution, then probably they were right that a true independent Cyprus has not been an option for us.

[iceman]

At that time union with Greece was a perfectly legitimate demand considering that this was the desire of the great majority of the people. There was nothing criminal about it. However the TCs are taught to just hate this idea, so they can't get their heads around the facts of that era. For them "Enosis is evil" and everything happened because "GCs are evil". Thats what they taught them. .

TC's hated the idea of ENOSIS because GC's planned to achieve their goal by robbing them from their rights and exterminating them..

Beyond that I can also understand why TCs didn't want union with Greece. And If I was living back then and had the brains, education and knowledge that I have now and a proposal for a true independence existed then I would definitely support independence and not Enosis, since a true independence could be acceptable to an even larger majority of Cypriots, and could serve the interests of the Cypriot people better.

Finally we agree on a point here...
If you had desired true independence for all then you would most definately have had the backing of the TC's also and we wouldnt have been in this situation..