Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

MODERATOR: Post deleted. Name calling and personal attacks are not permitted.

[gabaston]

MODERATOR: For being generally offensive and insulting to everyone, your post has been deleted. This is a forum for dialogue, not war.

WOT????...................you ever tried have a discussion with piratis. sooner or later he'll tell you how much he's saved up for his next tank

i know i know censored........but it woz worth it

[Alexandros Lordos]

MODERATOR: For being generally offensive and insulting to everyone, your post has been deleted. This is a forum for dialogue, not war.

WOT????...................you ever tried have a discussion with piratis. sooner or later he'll tell you how much he's saved up for his next tank

i know i know censored........but it woz worth it

No, you won't be censored. Piratis is also expressing strong emotion, but you just haven't seen the language in the post which I deleted. Somewhere we have to draw the line, between expressing anger and stating our disagreement - which should be allowed, and actively insulting people and attacking their personalities - which is not allowed.

Since we began to moderate the forum last week, I haven't noticed Piratis posting an insult or anything aggressive. Of course, if he - or anyone else for that matter - crosses that line, that's what censorship is for.

[erolz]

That was during the intercomunal conflict.

So because of that it was not ethnic cleansing?

Sure the GCs had part of the blame, but TCs had also blame since most of them didn't move because of fear but because it was their plan for partition (like they did in 74).

Most TC fled their homes and went to live in slum enclaves and caves in the persuit of a poltical goal? I am sorry but that is just rubbish. The main reason so many TC fled their homes was because of GC violence and fear of it. If I were leaving my home for a poltical goal I would order a removal truck and pack up all my goods and belongings and sell my house and land and buy a house in the are dictated by the needs of my political objective. This is not what happened. People fled their homes carrying only what they could in their hands and fled. It is violence and the threat of it that makes people do this , not poltical objectives. Again your continued insistance that the main reason so many TC fled their homes was to achieve partition does nothing to make me think that you are sincere in wanting to create a true equal and united cyprus.

Also we never claimed that any part of your land was ours and I hope the solution will allow you to get the 100% of the land you own. Can you say the same to us, or you believe that ethnic cleansing was your right?

Again that si just not true. There were GC that having driven TC from their homes in the 60's or watched other GC do it, went and looted their abandoned homes (and torched them as well) and the next day were working TC lands. Some of these lands are still being worked by GC today. I do not believe ethnic cleansing is our right. I believe that when two communites have both played their part in creating the problem, one side alone should not pay the price of solving it.

Who pretended otherwise. I said the EOKA cause was liberation from the colonialists, just like the revolution in Greece was liberation from the Ottomans.

Enosis was not for the liberation of Cyprus. Enosis was for the change of colonial rule from Britain to Greece. How easy it seems today for GC to talk about EOKA, with no mention of ENOSIS, but just talk of liberation and independancs from colonial rule, compared with the rehtoric of the 50 and 60s. In the 50 and 60s to talk of EOKA without mentioning enosis would have been a miriacle. Today it is the 'norm'. I wonder why that is?

So you claim the Ottoman rule of Cyprus is irrelevant to the problem we have today? Let me ask you this: If the Ottomans never ruled Cyprus, would we have the Cyprus problem today?
Sorry, but the Ottoman rule was VERY relevant.

I claim that it has vastly less relevance that what happend in the 60's. It's not toaly irrelevant, but it's not where near as relevant. The way the GC behaved in the 60's was not driven by what the ottomans did in Cyprus. It was driven by Greek nationalist ideas and the mengali idea. GC did not kill TC as revenge for the years of ottoman rule, they did it in the persuit of Greek nationalist ideals. If there ahd been no ottoman rule but there still was a TC population in Cyprus when it's independance was comming, and if that TC population were a block on GC desires for enosis then you still would have done what you did as far as I am concerned.

The innocent TCs had 30 years, and they will have some more to show that they are Innocent. The ones that do not support the violence and the ethnic cleansing against us will not only loose but actually gain a lot when Cyprus is reunited, even if this happens by force.

You expect me to believe this? The last time you had the baolance of power to enforce your will on the TC community against their wishes you used and abused this power. Why should I believe you would behave any different should you get the balance of power back again? Because you say you will not?

And by the way, in non of those places the majority was ethnically cleansed by a foreign army to create a state for some others.

Actually in absolute terms the seperation of India involved vastly more people being forced from their homes against their will than there are in all of Cyprus today.

Am I supposed to learn that a community of 18% is not a minority? It is like telling me that I should "learn" that the sky is red, otherwise you will start killing us again! It is you that you should learn that a community of 18% IS a minority.

You should understand that 18% can have poltical equality with 82% in some areas without it being against human rights and democracy. You shouold understand why given the history of cyprus such equality at some levels is vital if we are ever to reach the stated goal. You should understand that the right to self determination is real and important and that if you try and steal it from people there will be consequences.

[erolz]

erm, I'm really sorry erolz, but I think you picked the wrong examples here.
Even though there might not be war between those countries anymore, there is still very high tension and numerous incidents.

And if they had not seperted there would not be death and murder and violence and tension?

Piratis was saying you do not split a country to acheive peace. Well many countries have tried exactly that. Whether it works or not is arguable but to argue that 'it is not done, has not ever been done and will not ever be done in future' is just incorrect.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Erol, sorry to barge into the conversation, but it is just something I wanted to mention (as Alexandros, not as moderator). I think Piratis was trying to be conciliatory towards you at some point in this thread, but you missed the signal.

Again, sorry to barge in, just felt I should say this.

[erolz]

Erol, sorry to barge into the conversation, but it is just something I wanted to mention (as Alexandros, not as moderator). I think Piratis was trying to be conciliatory towards you at some point in this thread, but you missed the signal.

Again, sorry to barge in, just felt I should say this.

Me and piratis have a 'helical' relationship, moving closer and then futher apart in cycles

Actually I probably missed a lot as I got in a right mess moving posts from this thread into the thread you split off about the value of confidence measures and then moving them back again when I realised they should not have been there but here and it was a totaly different post that needed moving into the thread you split off. Confused? Not as much as I was

[Piratis]

So because of that it was not ethnic cleansing?

About that time you should ask the people of that time. You will see that while many of them have indeed moved out of fear, many others have done so because the "command" came from above (Turkey) because this is what would serve the ultimate goal. In any case by 68 most TCs returned to their homes.
Our main difference however is that I do not support those actions, but apparently you support the ethnic cleansing against us?

I do not believe ethnic cleansing is our right. I believe that when two communites have both played their part in creating the problem, one side alone should not pay the price of solving it.

I agree. So why do you think that TCs should end up with more than what they had before the problem started and GCs should end up with less than what they had before the problem started? In this case only the GCs pay the price, and TCs not only do not pay anything, but gain on top of that.

Enosis was not for the liberation of Cyprus. Enosis was for the change of colonial rule from Britain to Greece.

Different parts of Greece were liberated in different times and joint the Greek state. I assume you believe all parts of Greece are under Greek colonial rule? Until 1960 there was no independent Cyprus. Cyprus was an island were the great majority was Greek. Liberation = union with Greece at that time.

I claim that it has vastly less relevance that what happend in the 60's. It's not toaly irrelevant, but it's not where near as relevant. The way the GC behaved in the 60's was not driven by what the ottomans did in Cyprus.

History is a chain. Nothing is irrelevant. The Ottoman rule was very relevant since the Ottomans were the first (after all the other rulers) to create a separate community of such large size. Why do you think they did that? If you think a bit about it you will see that it is VERY relevant.

You expect me to believe this?

Thats up to you, believe nothing if you want.

Actually in absolute terms the seperation of India involved vastly more people being forced from their homes against their will than there are in all of Cyprus today.

In absolute terms the whole Cyprus is a neighborhood for India. We are talking about percentages here.

You should understand that 18% can have poltical equality with 82% in some areas without it being against human rights and democracy. You shouold understand why given the history of cyprus such equality at some levels is vital if we are ever to reach the stated goal.

I understand this 100%, the problem is that most often than not, you omit the parts I bolted in the paragraph above. Thats when we disagree.
Whenever I tried to discuss which areas and which levels this equality should exist you cut me off saying that no such limit should exist.
So is it in "some areas", or is it unlimited that you want?

[erolz]

So because of that it was not ethnic cleansing?

About that time you should ask the people of that time. You will see that while many of them have indeed moved out of fear, many others have done so because the "command" came from above (Turkey) because this is what would serve the ultimate goal.

Well you said GC never ethnical cleansed (by your defination) TC. This is clearly not true. No body flees their home leving behind their possessions and worldly goods at the command of a political leadership. If TP told you to flee your home and go and live in a cave in the hills to get GC desire in Cyprus would you go? I don't think so.

In any case by 68 most TCs returned to their homes.

most being the operative word.

Our main difference however is that I do not support those actions, but apparently you support the ethnic cleansing against us?

What makes you think I support it?

I agree. So why do you think that TCs should end up with more than what they had before the problem started and GCs should end up with less than what they had before the problem started? In this case only the GCs pay the price, and TCs not only do not pay anything, but gain on top of that.

I am not saying we should get more than we had before. I am saying that the return of all GC to their former homes would mean that only TC pay the price of what happened and this is what you keep demanding. In a settlement we can go back to the same or similar % that we had in 60 as ar as I am concerned - but it may not be the exact same lands, for TC have spent 30 years building a life in the north, most of them without any culpability in what happened personaly, yet you want all of these people to be made refugeees today so that there will be no GC refugees at all. That's not sharing the pain of a settlement, thats saying TC will bear all of the burden.

Different parts of Greece were liberated in different times and joint the Greek state. I assume you believe all parts of Greece are under Greek colonial rule? Until 1960 there was no independent Cyprus. Cyprus was an island were the great majority was Greek. Liberation = union with Greece at that time.

Exactly my point. You talk about a the existance of a single cypriot people and then you point out that GC persued solely GC ambitions for cyprus - not cypriot ambitions but GC and G ambitions, with no regard for the TC they shared the island with. The you wonder why I fear poltical domination by GC?

History is a chain. Nothing is irrelevant. The Ottoman rule was very relevant since the Ottomans were the first (after all the other rulers) to create a separate community of such large size. Why do you think they did that? If you think a bit about it you will see that it is VERY relevant.

I never said it is irrelevant. What I have said it that it's relevance is not the same as what happened in Cyprus from the point it was an indpoendent nation, in terms of where we are today and by a people who no longer exist vs people who still exist today and are alive today.

I understand this 100%, the problem is that most often than not, you omit the parts I bolted in the paragraph above. Thats when we disagree.
Whenever I tried to discuss which areas and which levels this equality should exist you cut me off saying that no such limit should exist.
So is it in "some areas", or is it unlimited that you want?

Come on Piratis how many times have we had this discussion? Have I not made my views totaly clear and explict in the past. For me poltical decision that affect the two communites differently should require seperate consent from each and those that do not should not. Simple and clear and often stated by me. For me our differences are that you want to offer these things as 'gifts' from GC to TC and refuse to accept we have any right to them or basis that they are a right. Secondly you want a (small) predefined list of areas we will have equality on and I want a set of principles to determine what areas we have equality on. The argument between us has never been about me wanting total equality on everything and at all levels and you wanting it at some and not others, and to be honest that you can present it as such after all the words typed and times we have been round this is both mystifying and depressing to me.

[DO NOT FORGET 1974!]

Administrator!

I posted an opinion in this forum in which I made no personal insult to anybody and yet one of your moderators deleted the entire posting with the excuse that I was implying war, although I did not even used the word.

Before me, two other Turkish forum members made postings that equate to a support and/or advertising of the illegal results of an illegal war and yet none of them was deleted by your moderators. Here they are!

TRNC stand still and gets even more powerfull each day. The direct flights from Azerbaycan is just a new start.
Watch the show and I hope you enjoy it:)

Maybe you can think that it is useless but i have to metion that thereis only way to leave in peace is that two state, two equal and sovereign people.

What is the difference between suggesting a war to end the illegal results of a war that has taken place and the supporting or advertising of the results of an illegal of a war that has already taken place? When they speak of their war and promote and justify it, this is okay and when I speak for my war against their war, it is not okay?

Furthermore, One of your moderators has insulted me personally by calling me brainwashed.
Here is his posting!

The Turk

I think the problem is that you over-generalise. If I used on you the expression "The Greek" would that mean anything to you? Probably not, you would say "which Greek, there are all sorts of Greeks, there are brave Greeks, traitor Greeks, money-centred Greeks" etc. etc.

Why shouldn't the same thing apply for the Turks? I know some Turks who are very reasonable and very honest. Then again, I know other Turks who are exactly as you describe them. Which of them is "the real Turk"?

Alex, an admirable effort to discuss with the brainwashed... sadly I also think one that is doomed to failure.

Your moderators are allowed to insult other forum members and at the same time they are also allowed to delete their postings on subjective grounds?

P.S.:This message has also been sent to you via PM.