Cyprus-Forum.com

[askimwos]

And what was the alterntive CarCav? Let the RoC slip into anarchy and chaos? Who would collect the taxes, run the hospitals, schools, social security etc? There was no alternative. Where do you think TCs were hospitalised, get pensions, petrol, buy goods between 1963 and 1974? Who operated the airports, ports, anything really that need a government to ran?
The law that was passed is an emergency law that is temporary and will cease to be valid if and when TCs return to the RoC government.

[GAVCARoCOM]

But my father told me he wanted to open a hotel and they told him that he have have a GC partner. Why ? And one time they force him to sell his land in Limassol but he didnt

[askimwos]

when was this?
Was it prior to 1963?
Between 1963 and 1974?
After 1974?

If it was after 1963 I guess no bank would give him a loan, especially if he moved into an enclave, since the RoC had no control of those territories. If this is the case then yes the bank or the RoC in order to guarantee the loan would have needed somebody who lived outside the TC enclave so that he/she would be held responsible if the loan was not repaid.

I am not sure if this was the case with your father. The 1960 constitution itself does not prohibit anybody from opening any kind of business.

[GAVCARoCOM]

i m sure it was between 1963-70s
I m impressed with your knowladge of the Cyprus history
And i beleive you are a GC
Can you please also tell me what do you think about annan plan and for you which way is to find solition ?

Also what about the villages burnt by eoka-b and the people who they are forced to sell their lands . Can you please make a comment on this one as well. I really want to know your opinion. Thanks

[BirKibrisli]

Can I please ask you something too, askimwos?

Putting the politics aside,what would happen if the TC leadership decided they wanted to return to the RoC under the 1960 constitution?
Can they be legally stopped?

Or what could happen if enough TCs decided to come and live in the South and demand their political rights under the RoC constitution?
Would "you have the TRNC protected by the Turkish army,so you can't return to the Republic" argument stand up in court?
Thanks

[askimwos]

i m sure it was between 1963-70s
I m impressed with your knowladge of the Cyprus history
And i beleive you are a GC
Can you please also tell me what do you think about annan plan and for you which way is to find solition ?

Also what about the villages burnt by eoka-b and the people who they are forced to sell their lands . Can you please make a comment on this one as well. I really want to know your opinion. Thanks

I have expressed my views a lot of times regarding the Annan plan but in brief here are my views:

The Annan plan was the most comprehensive plan that ever appeared in the 32 years since the turkish invation and it is sad that this initiative did not end in the way it was supposed to end - being the solution of the CyProb. There are a number of factors that played a part in this failure. Here are the ones that I consider the most important:

a) The US and UK factor: Both the US and UK assummed that the GC would accept the plan no matter how many negative elements it will include. They viewed Turkey (not the TCs) as the side that is more likely to reject the plan as it hadn't been long since Turkey was stating that the CyProb was solved with the trnc established. As a result of the above they ended up changing the 1st plan, that was welcomed by the GCs as a good start to negotiate and built on, to plan number 5 which more or less satisfied the 11 points set forward by mr Erdogan. This made an already negative climate regarding the absence of progress in the negotiations between January 2004 and May 2004 even more negative.

b) The absence of time and space for manouvering for the GC side between the 4th and 5th plan. It is worth saying that in plans 1, 2 and 3 the GCs felt that there was some space to manouvre and this was the point in the plan that allowed GCs residing in the TC statelet to vote and be elected for the TC statelet representatives in the parliament. The GC side were planning to exchange this right that the 3rd annan plan gave them and which was seen as a red line for Turkey with the right for more people to return and get their properties back and for the complete demilitarisation of the island and the abolition of the guarantor states point. Unfortunately, the UN with the backing of the US and the UK took away this manouvring space without making any equivant value concessions to the GC side. As a result the end product was rightly described as unbalanced.

c) The weakness or lack of will of the TC leaders to align themselves with the GC side in demanding a number of things that would benefit both communities. One of these was the abolition of the clause in the plan that gave the UK sovereingty over the sea and airspace surounding their military bases in Dekelia and Akrotiri as well as the Guarantor state clause that if abolished would mean real independence.

d) I am a person that supported the plan until its 3rd form with the hope that there would have been changes that would have pushed the GCs to vote for it. Unfortunately the last round of negotiations in Bourgenstock failed to fullfil these expectations. I will remind you of the climate of the next day after the release of the 5th plan - the Turkish news papers coming out with frontpages stating "Solution Ala Turka", the GC newspapers moarning for another missed chance and for the 5th plan not giving the chance to the GCs to vote Yes but also Afrika's reaction to the 5th plan that was a frontpage stating that the plan does not allow for a solution as everything that Turkey asked she got with no real concessions to the GC side.

I have to say that at the time I was sharing a flat with a TC friend and we both were litteraly hanging over the radio to listen how the negotiations were developing. I will never forget the look on his face when the 5th plan was release - the guy looked at me and he said "the fucking bastards (refering to US and Turkey), they are trying to partition the island by forcing GCs to say No".

In the past I posted 4 main things that if changed there will definetely be a yes vote from the GC side without the TCs loosing anything. These were:

1. Complete demilitarisation of the island (we don't need the 900 and 600 Greek and Turkish troops staying on the island indefinetely)

2. The abolition of the Guaranto powers clause. Instead we can have an International UN force on the island until Turkey enters the EU. Cyprus is a member of the EU and things have changed since the 1960. Guarantor powers mean absence of independence.

3. The issue of functionality of the solution - we don't need a veto in everyday government administration. Lets share the ministries and government services so a to have the president/CEO of each service/ministry taking the decisions and not being vetoed by the vice-president/CEO. TCs can take 30-40% of these CEO positions and GCs take the rest.

4. UK military bases - no sea or airspace given to them. If this happens we will end up with another 2 countries on the island. One in Dekelia and one in Akrotiri.

I am not sure if all the above can change in the current environment - the only people that can change the above are the TCs if they revolt against Turkey and ask for these changes so as to be a solution. The power/decision making though is with the Turkish Military and I am not sure that the TCs can do this. However, I believe that 1,3, and 4 can be changed if both the GC and TCs demand it and maybe put a deadline, say 2015 when the Guarantee Agreement cease to exist.

On the second part of your question regarding eoka b, yes there have been atrocities by those thags and Tcs are right to complain about it. These people followed their own agenda and more should have been done to be dealt with. Don't forget though that when Makarios asked Greece to withraw all the Greek officers and army from Cyprus in 1974, the Greek Junta's response was to organise the 15 July coup. Nobody says that TC people did not suffer at the time, however, they suffered from 2 enemies, eoka b and the tmt as well. There are well documented executions of TCs that did not align themselves with the tmt agenda - Kavazoglou is one of them. Also don't forget that eoka b killed more GCs than it did TCs. I consider both these terrorist organisations as being the long arms of Greece and Turkey but also of CIA in Cyprus and against the interests of all Cypriot people and RoC in general.

[askimwos]

Can I please ask you something too, askimwos?

Putting the politics aside,what would happen if the TC leadership decided they wanted to return to the RoC under the 1960 constitution?
Can they be legally stopped?

Or what could happen if enough TCs decided to come and live in the South and demand their political rights under the RoC constitution?
Would "you have the TRNC protected by the Turkish army,so you can't return to the Republic" argument stand up in court?
Thanks

I don't think that they can be legally stopped and it surely is not right politicaly as well. However, there is the issue of numbers - how may people are we talking about? If we talk about a couple of thousands then I don't think that this is feasible as this number is not seen as representative of the TC community. If the number is more like 50,000 then yes that can surely be done.

No argunment can stop people from returning to the RoC, in fact TC people can come to the RoC whenever they like. I think there are already more than 2,000 of them living in the RoC. In my previous post I stated that there is an emergency law in effect allowing for the government to operate without the TCs. This law has been lately amended so that TCs living in the RoC can now vote and be voted for the parlianment, and local administration. In fact in the last parliamentary and municipality elections many TCs voted.

[cypezokyli]

askimows raised some good points, that could (perhaps) lead to a sensible discussion (hopefully).
so let me ask the tcs a question:

do you know what changes your leadership asked for AP3 ? and do you consider that these changes were so significant for the tcs ?

[BirKibrisli]

Thank you,askimwos, for the considerable time and energy you put into answering both my and Gavcar's questions.
Sometime i feel that given the circumstances the only way we will find a solution is if the TC leadership decides to return to the RoC en mass,hence abolishing the TRNC and kindly asking the Turkish army to withdraw. But that seems an impossibility,especially now that the athmosphere between the two communities has turned from lukewarm to icy..
I have to admit I know or remember little about the different stages of the AP.Like most people I waited for the final plan,and studied that.
Perhaps Cypez,you can tell us what were the Turkish or TC demands at the AP Stage 3.I am interested to find out what was changed between stages 3 and 5 and why...Thanks

[GAVCARoCOM]

askim,
I really appriciate that you answered my questions . Thanks