Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Birkibrisli, I support that TCs should get the 100% of their rights, and I also recognize that several of them have suffered. I also support that GCs should get the 100% of their rights, and that many more of GCs have suffered for WAY longer periods of time (which is just a fact, not opinion). Compare that with what people like Viewpoint support: That GCs were the aggressors and TCs the victims (which is a lie) and that the human, legal and democratic rights of GCs should continue to be violated. So who doesn't give a damn about whom here?

What exactly do you want me to do? Not to respond to the LIES of those that are trying to present the GC community as the "evil" and themselves as the "Virgin Mary" to excuse their demand to be rewarded on the expense of the whole GC community?

It is not communities that suffer.It is the individuals.

Agreed. So why are they mixing the communities into this then? Why should one community be rewarded on the expense on other?

If the past is going to be used to determine who is going to be rewarded and who punished, then the ones who should be punished are the TCs and Turks since their crimes against us have been more in both quantity and time. However I do not support that anybody should be rewarded or punished based on what happened in the past. On the contrary I support that everybody should get the 100% of their human, legal, and democratic rights and make a new start leaving the bad past behind.

So answer me straight Bir Viewpoint and Murtaga: Should the past be used as an excuse to punish one community and reward another, which naturally means we have to punish the TC community and reward the GC community? I do not want that, but if you insist on it, then fine. I have many times said that all should get their 100% rights back and nobody should be punished or rewarded. But if thats what you want because you are so greedy that even the 100% of your rights is not enough, you want to take 150% by reducing our rights, then be sure that one day, as you want it, the past will be used again for the reward/punishment and it will be the time to pay for every single crime you committed against us since the day you set your foot on our island.

[miltiades]

Piratis wrote:
""""So answer me straight Bir Viewpoint and Murtaga: Should the past be used as an excuse to punish one community and reward another, which naturally means we have to punish the TC community and reward the GC community? I do not want that, but if you insist on it, then fine. I have many times said that all should get their 100% rights back and nobody should be punished or rewarded. But if that's what you want because you are so greedy that even the 100% of your rights is not enough, you want to take 150% by reducing our rights, then be sure that one day, as you want it, the past will be used again for the reward/punishment and it will be the time to pay for every single crime you committed against us since the day you set your foot on our island.""""

Piratis my dear friend , just as long as you insist it is them and us , an acceptable solution would never be found.
The T/Cs are part of Cyprus , they are just as much the rightful owners as you and I are . I have lived for only 45 years in the UK and yet I consider that the UK is my country too, no English person will justifiably consider me a "foreigner" .My children were born in the UK , are they too "foreigners" , you make it sound , by using words such as ""since the day you set your foot on our island "" that the T/Cs are foreigners in Cyprus , that Bir born in Paphos is a mere remnant of the Ottoman Empire !!
I have the utmost respect for common sense and logic , attributes that make Bir stand out amongst us , to include him with VP in this paragraph """ because you are so greedy that even the 100% of your rights is not enough ""
is an insult not only to him but to myself also who share his constructive and logical vision for Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Miltiades, I didn't put Bir in the same category, maybe it sounded like that but it was not. What was the same was the question, that is made to all three, and to you also since you also participate in this thread.

About the "us VS them" it is a reality. "Us" are the law obeying Cypriots that respect the sovereignty and independence of Republic of Cyprus. This includes not just GCs but many other Cypriots, including some Turkish Cypriots as well. "Them" are those who support crimes and illegalities and are trying to destroy Republic of Cyprus and gain on the loss of the rest of Cypriots. Unfortunately the majority of "them" is the majority of TCs and Turks, and this is an observation that is not very hard to make.

I hope that one day those that support crimes and illegalities will realize their mistake so we can all become "us". Today however this is not the case, so we, the law obeying Cypriots, have to do what we have to do to protect our country from our enemies that want our destruction.

[Viewpoint]

miltiades

Bir , you are 100 plus % correct . The " old " attitudes often expressed in Cyprus by people from both sites need to be put to rest if we are going to move ahead instead of remaining stuck in the 60s and 70s . I can see Piratis arguments and I'm sure he can also see the arguments of those of us who place less importance on majority and minority issues , but consider all Cypriots to have the exact same rights and privileges .A T/C Vice President , why not a President , why not tell all Cypriots that the best man will be the President , mind you though , the president of Cyprus not a puppet of a foreign country. We can only go forward as one people , the minute we are divided as Cypriots , as we now are , the problems develop.

These sweeping statements are so easy to make when you have the comfort of knowing you are the numerical majority add to this the attitudes of GCs against TCs and vice versa, how would you ensure that a TC president would ever be elected? it is because of these obvious attitudes that people in Cyprus would vote more on ethnic lines than the best man for the job, that is why safeguards have to be in place which to create a fair balance and that one community is not brushed aside at the whim of the other.

[miltiades]

VP , There are thousands upon thousands of both G/Cs and T/Cs who share my dream , for the development of a political union amongst Cypriots who will offer the majority of Cypriots real hope and real prospects of security and peace , for as long as we have amongst us people who constantly delve in the past and remind us all of the cruelty and injustices of the past , it will take a little longer. I know many Cypriots who share what I believe , what I posted way back last April and you dismissed as the views of one lonely old man , well now we have a respectable number on this forum alone , so I'm not the minority any more , you are .
People in the UK , vote for a party , why not in Cyprus ? The UK is considered the beacon of Democracy in the world.We can learn something. Your vision of a separate Cyprus nation belonging only to T/Cs is doomed to fail , you are forgetting that the Cypriots are stubborn and would never accept a foreign nation occupying a part of their country for ever. They will resist polically in every possible sphere of world activity .
I hope that a new government soon to be elected in the RoC will pay more attention to it's obligations to the T/Cs
such obligations must me met and must be put on top of the agenda. No Cypriot president has any right to sell our identity to a foreign nation , and has no right to ignore a part of our Cypriot people and their aspirations.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

The argument of a federation is flowed. Why should we have one? The Greek Cypriots are the legal majority of all parts of Cyprus, so what gives the right to TCs for a separate state on any part of it? Nothing!

Flawed in the sense that you are trying to restrict the size of a state to the % of the community, lets go with what you are saying how will account for the GCs who wish to return and live in the north state? will the % increase? why can this not be 29% as we have always agreed?

If the amount of land does not matter to you, then would you accept the 5%? If it is as you are saying then why are you creating a fuss about it?

The problem here that both of us do not want to live in the other state, am I right? you do not want to live under TC administration and vice versa.

We can make a compromise for a BBF as I explained it to you, not because you have the right to it but because it is our part of a compromise, as long as you will do a similar compromise from your rights. You don't accept it, then forget about BBF all together and obey the UN resolutions, end the occupation, dissolve the illegal "trnc" and allow legality to return for all Cypriots.

Please tell us what a similar compromise would be? as anything I suggest will not be enough. Again you forget it you that does not want the 1960 agreements, you have stated they are not balanced, so it will be a matter of months before you again try to change it, just like 1963 what will change, we will be back to square 1.

Or maybe you think you can just force us to accept your illegal demands by keeping the north part of Cyprus as a hostage to blackmail us? As I said already you should forget about this, and if you follow this way then be sure you will lose more than we do.

These hollow threats mean nothing, they serve no purpose because you know how TCs are you give them a loaf of bread they buy you a meal, you slap them in the face and they will kick your head in, the choice is yours.

On the contrary the TC minority got way more than what they should with the 1960 agreements. If there would be any corrections on the balance of the 1960 agreements then that correction should in favor of GCs and not the other way around.

And in he same breath you ask us to return to these agreements which you do not support or would stick to, then you have the nerve to ask us why.

If 1960 were unworkable and undemocratic once (for your benefit), then what you demand now is unworkable and undemocratic 10 times as much. So why should we accept something which is even worst?

The actions and problems of the past shaoe any future formulas, you have to ensure that no door is left open where the errors of the past can be repeated and that one community is not left at the mercy of the other.

[Pyrpolizer]

Flawed in the sense that you are trying to restrict the size of a state to the % of the community, lets go with what you are saying how will account for the GCs who wish to return and live in the north state? will the % increase? why can this not be 29% as we have always agreed?

Because we never agreed on 29%, we never agreed that you should increase the percentage of land just because some GCs (ranging from 0% to maximum 10% of your population=1.8%) would return. The same way you never agreed that your percentage should lower according to how many TCs return. With your logic the TC Fed state could be as big as it currently is i.e 37%. REJECTED. Moreover any percentage greater than your own population will raise a new agenda in working towards partition so that you are left with a recognised state of 29%.

The problem here that both of us do not want to live in the other state, am I right? you do not want to live under TC administration and vice versa.

Assuming it is entirely true then why should you get anything more than 18%?

The actions and problems of the past shaoe any future formulas, you have to ensure that no door is left open where the errors of the past can be repeated and that one community is not left at the mercy of the other.

Neither this is absolutely possible unless we have partition.In a Federal system there will be a risk both for you and for us. The risk for us is Turkey messing around through TC nationalists in the affairs of the Federal state. I don’t think we can avoid those risks, neither us nor you. Keeping them on the minimum is all we can do. Complete dmilitarisation might be the only way out.

[Viewpoint]

miltiades

VP , There are thousands upon thousands of both G/Cs and T/Cs who share my dream , for the development of a political union amongst Cypriots who will offer the majority of Cypriots real hope and real prospects of security and peace , for as long as we have amongst us people who constantly delve in the past and remind us all of the cruelty and injustices of the past , it will take a little longer. I know many Cypriots who share what I believe , what I posted way back last April and you dismissed as the views of one lonely old man , well now we have a respectable number on this forum alone , so I'm not the minority any more , you are .

The current stalemate proves that you are nowhere near to being a deiciding or even influencing factor, yours is just but a dream just like mine which I do not deny you as you shoudl not dey me mine. Will the re-election of Tassos prove how far away you exactly are?
So what you are saying is forget the past and not learn to ensure the same mistakes are not repeated in the future, that is why imo safeguards are imperiative to ensure these mistake are not repeated your way would leave us exposed to an ideology which can be exploited to create mayhem and bring about situations where more people from both communites could suffer, how would you feel then?

People in the UK , vote for a party , why not in Cyprus ? The UK is considered the beacon of Democracy in the world.We can learn something.

There you live under laws set by foreigners and were in place when you arrived, you have to abide by them, here we are trying to be the ones who create those laws and administer them for everyone to abide by, do you see the difference?

Your vision of a separate Cyprus nation belonging only to T/Cs is doomed to fail , you are forgetting that the Cypriots are stubborn and would never accept a foreign nation occupying a part of their country for ever. They will resist polically in every possible sphere of world activity .

This is your right no one is denying you this but what you have to accept is the reality of the situation and the will of the people which at the current time does not correspond with yours, unless measures a taken by both sides to chnage the cuurent momentum partition will arrive one day, its will be out of your control and at this rate you will be the ones demanding this as you will come to the concluson that the north is now part of Turkey thats why time is not in the GCs favor.

They will resist polically in every possible sphere of world activity .
I hope that a new government soon to be elected in the RoC will pay more attention to it's obligations to the T/Cs
such obligations must me met and must be put on top of the agendaNo Cypriot president has any right to sell our identity to a foreign nation , and has no right to ignore a part of our Cypriot people and their aspirations.

Totally agree. This is what they Gc leadership shoudl be concentrating on to bring us closer together not the current policy of alienating the TCs which is very effective.
[/quote]

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I support that TCs should get the 100% of their rights, and I also recognize that several of them have suffered.

This really sums Piratis up, just when I thought we were gettng somewhere, very disappointing.

You are trying to excuse your mistakes of the past so as not to be asked to make concessions, you still hold me responsible for what my ancestors did back in history and I am referring to the opportunity we had to unite and the mistakes made by both communities only 47 years ago, my need are safeguards to ensure we do not repeat those same mistakes, you continue to use words like punish and reward, of course both sides will have to compromise to find the best solution possible, which do you think is correct?

[Pyrpolizer]

VP is practically terrified from me.


Does not even dare read my posts any more...