Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I reckon in a fair and just democratic countrey all citizens should have equal rights, why should the vice president always be turkish speaking cypriot, why not give the opportunity to someone with good social, economic and political policies the chance to be presisdent if the people vote for him regardless of their sex, race, sexuality, language or reliligious affiliation. America could have its first Africanm American leader.

I agree 100% ,dear humanist,that in an ideal world the President should only be judged by his/her qualities as a politician,a leader,and a human being... But things have not been ideal in our homeland for so long that only a miracle could bring what you say about.How long more do we have to wait for that miracle to happen???

[BirKibrisli]

Thanks for your considered response,Piratis.
Please read my replies to miltiades and humanist above,as it is pointless to repeat myself. I truly believe we need to be prepared to put the past behind us,and look to the future with the eyes of an innocent child, if we are to overcome our problems in Cyprus.

The pain and suffering inflicted on the TCs between 63-74 were not limited to the numbers killed in the fighting. You could even say the deaths were the least of it. A proud,dignified and hard working community were forced to become dispossessed of political power,of physical safety,and essentially their sense of self,as they went into survival mode for more than a decade.I am not saying it was all the faults of the GCs,and I am not going to give you a history lecture here,because I know you know all the forces which were at work to tear the fabric of Cypriot society apart. Most of the fear and apprehention of the TCs today are a product of those times, which were ruthlessly exploited by Turkish nationalists for their own purposes. But unless we get over that period and move forward,without apportioning guilt or blame,we will never get out of this mess alive.We need to find the empathy and the compassion for each other to take our destiny in our own hands,despite all the moves to keep us stuck in the bog hole we are in...I think you know that this post is not aimed just at you or those who think like you.It is also aimed at those who love to bitch about all the pain and suffering of the TCs,without giving a second thought to the pain and suffering of the GCs in this conflict...

[Piratis]

Bir, I 100% agree with you that we should leave the past behind.

As you see I never asked for the human, democratic, or other rights of anybody to be compromised due to history or for any other reason. However when others try to appoint blame in order to excuse yet more crimes today, then I am obligated to remind them they are and they have been the aggressors during the 99% of our history (including TODAY) and therefore they have absolutely no right to demand their reward on the expense of our human, legal and democratic rights.

The pain and suffering inflicted on the TCs between 63-74 were not limited to the numbers killed in the fighting. You could even say the deaths were the least of it. A proud,dignified and hard working community were forced to become dispossessed of political power,of physical safety,and essentially their sense of self,as they went into survival mode for more than a decade.

I agree but that is a drop in the ocean compared to what we suffered from Turks. Except if TCs would prefer to exchange the above mere decade, with 3 centuries of being slaves or 3+ decades of being ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. There is really no comparison between the hardships that Turks have caused to us since the day they came to Cyprus, and trying to blame us on top of it and expect to be rewarded on our expense again with yet more violations of our rights is ridiculous.

So I hope you agree that a solution can not be on the expense of GCs by taking even more from our rights that what we compromised with the 1960 agreements.

[Viewpoint]

Bir, I 100% agree with you that we should leave the past behind.

As you see I never asked for the human, democratic, or other rights of anybody to be compromised due to history or for any other reason. However when others try to appoint blame in order to excuse yet more crimes today, then I am obligated to remind them they are and they have been the aggressors during the 99% of our history (including TODAY) and therefore they have absolutely no right to demand their reward on the expense of our human, legal and democratic rights.

The pain and suffering inflicted on the TCs between 63-74 were not limited to the numbers killed in the fighting. You could even say the deaths were the least of it. A proud,dignified and hard working community were forced to become dispossessed of political power,of physical safety,and essentially their sense of self,as they went into survival mode for more than a decade.

I agree but that is a drop in the ocean compared to what we suffered from Turks. Except if TCs would prefer to exchange the above mere decade, with 3 centuries of being slaves or 3+ decades of being ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. There is really no comparison between the hardships that Turks have caused to us since the day they came to Cyprus, and trying to blame us on top of it and expect to be rewarded on our expense again with yet more violations of our rights is ridiculous.

So I hope you agree that a solution can not be on the expense of GCs by taking even more from our rights that what we compromised with the 1960 agreements.

Do you accept BBF?

[Piratis]

Do you accept BBF?

As long as it is a true a federation as it exists in other federal countries (e.g. USA, Russia etc), the territory of the states is proportional to the population (18%-82%) and TCs make a compromise of equivalent magnitude from their 1960 rights to match this compromise from our side, then yes.

BBF is a proposal and if both sides make mutual compromises of equivalent magnitude from their rights in order to achieve it then why not?

However it seems that a BBF solution acceptable to both sides can not be reached, and therefore what remains is the only legal thing that existed since 1960, the RoC constitution and everybody is obligated to respect that along with the sovereignty of independence of Cyprus. The fact that we are discussing the possibility of changing the constitution and the structure in Cyprus doesn't give the right to anybody to violate international law and human rights of 100s of thousands of people.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

As long as it is a true a federation as it exists in other federal countries (e.g. USA, Russia etc), the territory of the states is proportional to the population (18%-82%) and TCs make a compromise of equivalent magnitude from their 1960 rights to match this compromise from our side, then yes.

This arguement is flawed, show me an example where the size of the states in a federal structure is based on the population distribution. What does it matter when everyone can move and live where they wish, or is it that GCs do not want to live in a TC state under a local TC administration? yet this is fine for us when reversed.

BBF is a proposal and if both sides make mutual compromises of equivalent magnitude from their rights in order to achieve it then why not?

So you pertain to the belief that its an eye for an eye? why not think of it as a correcting of one side being more advantaged than the other.

However it seems that a BBF solution acceptable to both sides can not be reached, and therefore what remains is the only legal thing that existed since 1960, the RoC constitution and everybody is obligated to respect that along with the sovereignty of independence of Cyprus. The fact that we are discussing the possibility of changing the constitution and the structure in Cyprus doesn't give the right to anybody to violate international law and human rights of 100s of thousands of people.

Is that the one you were forced to sign and you feel is unfiarly balanced in our favor and that you tried to change at the first chance?

Be honest Piratis how long do you think it would take GCs to demand changes to the 1960 consititution claiming it is unworkable and undemocratic? bingo back to square one.

[Piratis]

This arguement is flawed, show me an example where the size of the states in a federal structure is based on the population distribution. What does it matter when everyone can move and live where they wish, or is it that GCs do not want to live in a TC state under a local TC administration? yet this is fine for us when reversed.

The argument of a federation is flowed. Why should we have one? The Greek Cypriots are the legal majority of all parts of Cyprus, so what gives the right to TCs for a separate state on any part of it? Nothing!

If the amount of land does not matter to you, then would you accept the 5%? If it is as you are saying then why are you creating a fuss about it?

We can make a compromise for a BBF as I explained it to you, not because you have the right to it but because it is our part of a compromise, as long as you will do a similar compromise from your rights. You don't accept it, then forget about BBF all together and obey the UN resolutions, end the occupation, dissolve the illegal "trnc" and allow legality to return for all Cypriots.

Or maybe you think you can just force us to accept your illegal demands by keeping the north part of Cyprus as a hostage to blackmail us? As I said already you should forget about this, and if you follow this way then be sure you will lose more than we do.

So you pertain to the belief that its an eye for an eye? why not think of it as a correcting of one side being more advantaged than the other.

On the contrary the TC minority got way more than what they should with the 1960 agreements. If there would be any corrections on the balance of the 1960 agreements then that correction should in favor of GCs and not the other way around.

Is that the one you were forced to sign and you feel is unfiarly balanced in our favor and that you tried to change at the first chance?

Be honest Piratis how long do you think it would take GCs to demand changes to the 1960 consititution claiming it is unworkable and undemocratic? bingo back to square one.

There is nothing illegal or wrong with proposing changes and asking for democratic reforms.

If 1960 were unworkable and undemocratic once (for your benefit), then what you demand now is unworkable and undemocratic 10 times as much. So why should we accept something which is even worst?

[Pyrpolizer]

TCs are the legal partners of Cyprus under the principals of bi-communality, political equality and bi-zonality.

Bi-communality means 2 major communities, political equality does not mean numerical equality, neither 50-50 share, it only means equality of the Fedral states before the central Fed government, and bi-zonality simply means 2 areas comprising the Federation. Depending on how anyone can dream and twist those words around, we may end up from a true Federation to 2 separate states!
Now tell me how on earth 18% of the people even under complete exchange of properties should ever be handled 29% of Cyprus to form their Fed state. In my opinion this is dangerous because the next step would be driving towards partition so that the TCs are left with that 29%.

This arguement is flawed, show me an example where the size of the states in a federal structure is based on the population distribution. What does it matter when everyone can move and live where they wish, or is it that GCs do not want to live in a TC state under a local TC administration? yet this is fine for us when reversed.

And you show me an example where a Federal state is ruled by people who own less than 10% of it’s land and properties.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, I 100% agree with you that we should leave the past behind.

As you see I never asked for the human, democratic, or other rights of anybody to be compromised due to history or for any other reason. However when others try to appoint blame in order to excuse yet more crimes today, then I am obligated to remind them they are and they have been the aggressors during the 99% of our history (including TODAY) and therefore they have absolutely no right to demand their reward on the expense of our human, legal and democratic rights.

The pain and suffering inflicted on the TCs between 63-74 were not limited to the numbers killed in the fighting. You could even say the deaths were the least of it. A proud,dignified and hard working community were forced to become dispossessed of political power,of physical safety,and essentially their sense of self,as they went into survival mode for more than a decade.

I agree but that is a drop in the ocean compared to what we suffered from Turks. Except if TCs would prefer to exchange the above mere decade, with 3 centuries of being slaves or 3+ decades of being ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. There is really no comparison between the hardships that Turks have caused to us since the day they came to Cyprus, and trying to blame us on top of it and expect to be rewarded on our expense again with yet more violations of our rights is ridiculous.

So I hope you agree that a solution can not be on the expense of GCs by taking even more from our rights that what we compromised with the 1960 agreements.

This is where you are wrong,dear Piratis.
You can not quantify individual pain and suffering,and say one community suffered more than the other. It is not communities that suffer.It is the individuals. There is a saying in Turkish,"Atesh dushtugu yeri yakar" (fire burns where it lands),perhaps you have something similar in Greek. You can't tell the families of say,those people killed by the TMT,or those who dies in massacres,that their pain is less than the other side's pain because more people were killed or made refugees on the GC side,or because they have been suffering for longer.You can't tell those TCs who were forced or persuaded to leave their homes in the South,that their pain and suffering is less than the GCs because the GCs were more in numbers.Do you know what I am getting at? My life was turned upside down because I was a TC boy born in Paphos to a father who had fallen foul of the TMT (and probably EOKA as well to a lesser extend)...We had to leave the island and go into exile literally to save our lives...You can't tell me my pain and suffering and sense of loss are less,because similar things happened to GCs in larger numbers or for longer...I urge you to think about this,and consider the implications.Because if you use the logic you are using,you seem to trivialise the suffering of the TCs,or worse do not give a damn about them,and you are dismissing them coldheartedly...Then you are open to accusations like Viewpoint's that nothing has changed in all these years,that you still lack compassion and understanding for the plight TCs, and cannot be trusted again,hence the Turkish army cannot leave...I hope you will take all this in the spirit it is written...

[miltiades]

Bir, I 100% agree with you that we should leave the past behind.

As you see I never asked for the human, democratic, or other rights of anybody to be compromised due to history or for any other reason. However when others try to appoint blame in order to excuse yet more crimes today, then I am obligated to remind them they are and they have been the aggressors during the 99% of our history (including TODAY) and therefore they have absolutely no right to demand their reward on the expense of our human, legal and democratic rights.

The pain and suffering inflicted on the TCs between 63-74 were not limited to the numbers killed in the fighting. You could even say the deaths were the least of it. A proud,dignified and hard working community were forced to become dispossessed of political power,of physical safety,and essentially their sense of self,as they went into survival mode for more than a decade.

I agree but that is a drop in the ocean compared to what we suffered from Turks. Except if TCs would prefer to exchange the above mere decade, with 3 centuries of being slaves or 3+ decades of being ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. There is really no comparison between the hardships that Turks have caused to us since the day they came to Cyprus, and trying to blame us on top of it and expect to be rewarded on our expense again with yet more violations of our rights is ridiculous.

So I hope you agree that a solution can not be on the expense of GCs by taking even more from our rights that what we compromised with the 1960 agreements.

This is where you are wrong,dear Piratis.
You can not quantify individual pain and suffering,and say one community suffered more than the other. It is not communities that suffer.It is the individuals. There is a saying in Turkish,"Atesh dushtugu yeri yakar" (fire burns where it lands),perhaps you have something similar in Greek. You can't tell the families of say,those people killed by the TMT,or those who dies in massacres,that their pain is less than the other side's pain because more people were killed or made refugees on the GC side,or because they have been suffering for longer.You can't tell those TCs who were forced or persuaded to leave their homes in the South,that their pain and suffering is less than the GCs because the GCs were more in numbers.Do you know what I am getting at? My life was turned upside down because I was a TC boy born in Paphos to a father who had fallen foul of the TMT (and probably EOKA as well to a lesser extend)...We had to leave the island and go into exile literally to save our lives...You can't tell me my pain and suffering and sense of loss are less,because similar things happened to GCs in larger numbers or for longer...I urge you to think about this,and consider the implications.Because if you use the logic you are using,you seem to trivialise the suffering of the TCs,or worse do not give a damn about them,and you are dismissing them coldheartedly...Then you are open to accusations like Viewpoint's that nothing has changed in all these years,that you still lack compassion and understanding for the plight TCs, and cannot be trusted again,hence the Turkish army cannot leave...I hope you will take all this in the spirit it is written...

Bir , you are 100 plus % correct . The " old " attitudes often expressed in Cyprus by people from both sites need to be put to rest if we are going to move ahead instead of remaining stuck in the 60s and 70s . I can see Piratis arguments and I'm sure he can also see the arguments of those of us who place less importance on majority and minority issues , but consider all Cypriots to have the exact same rights and privileges .A T/C Vice President , why not a President , why not tell all Cypriots that the best man will be the President , mind you though , the president of Cyprus not a puppet of a foreign country. We can only go forward as one people , the minute we are divided as Cypriots , as we now are , the problems develop.