Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Again with the whole "who started first" fighting. Where are we going to do with this. OK Piratis you win. GC suffer more under Turkish rule than TC suffer under Greek rule. Happy? Is this why you guys are trying to take revenge now?

Turkcyp, I don't want revenge, and actually I believe the "who started first" thing is pointless.

The problem is that whenever I tried to talk about human rights in Cyprus, some TC will come up and say something like: "You started all this in 63, so now it is not realistic to get all your human rights back" or "We do not trust you because of what happened in 63-68 and thats why we have to live separately now" etc etc.

So some (most?) TCs use history in a very selective way to try to justify their demands. This is what forces me to refer to the whole history, because I do not accept when some TCs come here pretending to be the only victims that have to be reworded, while GCs are the bad ones that have to be punished again and convicted forever.

I will repeat that I would be more than happy to leave the past behind and start fresh, and (after a specific transitional period) achieve human rights and democracy for all Cypriots without any racial discriminations.

Unfortunately it seems to me that what you want are permanent derogations from our rights in our own country, and discrimination of people based on their race. Am I wrong?

[turkcyp]

Turkcyp, I don't want revenge, and actually I believe the "who started first" thing is pointless.

The problem is that whenever I tried to talk about human rights in Cyprus, some TC will come up and say something like: "You started all this in 63, so now it is not realistic to get all your human rights back" or "We do not trust you because of what happened in 63-68 and thats why we have to live separately now" etc etc.

So some (most?) TCs use history in a very selective way to try to justify their demands. This is what forces me to refer to the whole history, because I do not accept when some TCs come here pretending to be the only victims that have to be reworded, while GCs are the bad ones that have to be punished again and convicted forever.

It does not matter who started it. GCs may have started it but that does not justify any further aggression of your human rights. Furthermore it does not also matte who suffered more in the past as well, as old mistakes can not be taken as justification for future wrongs. And again further, even if any side is currently doing human rights violations, this does not justify others current human rights violations. This is like you are stealing from me so I am stealing from you. Basically the moral of the story is two wrongs never make one right.

What does matter though is that TCs do not trust GCs so they will ask necessary assurances in the boundaries of without violating human rights . And these may take form of permanent derogations form EU law. In no where permanent derogations from EU law is considered violation of human rights. First of all, if derogation is a violation of human rights, it is not accepted at all. Permanent or temporary, it really does not matter. And in short derogation from human rights is not accepted at all, temporary or permanent.

So if somebody is asking derogation from your human rights you have every right to complain. But do not confuse derogation from EU law with derogation of human rights.

I will repeat that I would be more than happy to leave the past behind and start fresh, and (after a specific transitional period) achieve human rights and democracy for all Cypriots without any racial discriminations.

Cool. We are at the same page here.

Unfortunately it seems to me that what you want are permanent derogations from our rights in our own country, and discrimination of people based on their race. Am I wrong?

I do not know what you mean restrictions based on race. If you are talking about equality of two communities on the federal level based on race. Yes then Piratis I need restrictions based on race. An hopefully permanent derogation from EU law for that. If you are not willing to give those restrictions based on race. Then there is no further talking. WE get our share of land, you get your share of land and we go our own separate ways.

If you are talking about any other restrictions based on race, then I am against those restrictions myself.

But it seems to me that you have this utopia that one mans vote equals to the other mans vote. That has never happened in real world (not even in unitary states let alone Federation), and will never happen in Cyprus as well. Whatever you say if you are not giving equality of TC community to GC community in the federal level (not just equality of one TC vote with one GC vote) then we will be talking for nothing as that kind of solution will never be acceptable for us. (And by the way what I am asking is not against human rights, before you start complaining. It may be against your interpretation of human rights, but certainly not according to the interpreation of human rights of the whole raneg of countries that supprted Annan Plan. Or do you think the whole world supported Annan Plan, knowing that it is against human rights just to trick GCs? Then why are you even in EU? Even EU backed the Annan Plan. If you do not trust EU to uphold human rights then why be in there.)

If you are not willing to accept that, then we should start considering splitting the island into two in a fair manner.

Take care of yourself,

[Alexandros Lordos]

Concerning derogations:

(and sorry to barge into your discussion)

It seems to me that out of the Annan Plan derogations, some should be temporary and some should be permanent.

For instance, I think ethnic equality in the Federal level should be permanent (unless changed through separate referenda) and also permanent restriction to residence should be permanent - but a generous restriction, like 1/3 of total population of the constituent state, not something stingy like 15%-18%. 15%-18% smells too much like an attempt to maintain "ethnic purity" - which is a vioaltion of human rights.

What should be temporary, for say 10 or 15 years until basic co-operation and trust develops, are qualified majorities in the Senate and Presidential Council, and also the presence of three non-Cypriot judges in the Supreme Court (and of course tie-breaking role of Supreme Court). These are dysfunctional and legally inelegant provisions, and they should only apply on an interim basis until trust between the two communities develops.

[brother]

Mete,
i understand all that and am a rational man who has lived his life with tc and gc in u.k for many years but people like piratis who are so ............... well you get the idea and bring the worse out of a saint but in the view of not upsetting my gc compatriots on the forum who to me seem decent people i will call a halt to this non-productive banter with piratis.

[brother]

Alex,
many people keep on talking about these time limits so trust will grow etc. but what are they basing these time limits on.
How do we know that in 10-15 years it will be o.k but what if it isn't, what if it is in a shorter period.

Would it not be better to say that at intervals of 2 years it will be assesed by an independant commitee and accordingly when they are satisfied the limits are lifted and if the people want they can even have a referandum on it.

This way no one can say it will take 15 years for us to unite properly and it also opens the opportunity when the independant commitee meets it can also decide what it can do to help the process if it has been lagging.

The way it stands it stinks to much of underlining that we still harbour a lot of mistrust and could never break this cycle.

[insan]

Would it not be better to say that at intervals of 2 years it will be assesed by an independant commitee and accordingly when they are satisfied the limits are lifted and if the people want they can even have a referandum on it.

This way no one can say it will take 15 years for us to unite properly and it also opens the opportunity when the independant commitee meets it can also decide what it can do to help the process if it has been lagging.

I completely agree, brother...

[-mikkie2-]

Personally, I think once unification occurs the power of economics will force the two communities together very quickly. The only issue is political. If it is found that the TC's and GC's are effectively working together on many levels and they start to become constrained by red tape and communal barriers would the politicians relinquish control of communal matters for the greater good of the Cypriot economy or will they hold back economic integration and development in order keep control of their domain?

[brother]

If we use the "brother plan" that i have qouted above at least we have a tempreture check every 2 years to asses the situation.

[Piratis]

Brother,
What you say, is that we should accept what you want, and then later on, when trust will be build etc, referenda can be held and it can be changed to what we ask for if you agree.

I tell you what: you accept what we want, and then later on if you don't like it, referenda can be held and if we agree it can be changed to what you ask for.

[brother]

Piratis don't be a plonker all your life, what i suggested is nothing bad for anyone, its about building trust but rather than 15 years fixed time limit and no checks to see if it is required i suggested an independant commitee who will monitor the situation and asses, and see what it can do to help the process or wether it is still required.

This has no bearing on wether you are tc or gc and just in case you did not get it this will be good for all not one side or the other so in response to your above statement, "what are you talking about" and as for the quote calling it the "brother plan" that was meant to be light humour.