Cyprus-Forum.com

[-mikkie2-]

What RoC is doing is just a political game. If they really are serious about letting us participate the RoC, then they should show us ways and guidance how we can exercise our rights from 1960 constitution. Not the rights you give us in the current system.

Tell us how are we going to vote for vice president (not president, GCs choose the president), tell us how to register as a member of TC community so we can have our elections, tell us where are the ballot boxes for TCs. IF you are not telling all these then you should tell us, if nevertheless we miraculously by coming together in numbers and chose 1/3 of MPs and vice president if you will accepts them legitimate or not.

Force Turkey to establish constitutional order in Cyprus, force her to remove her troops, let the RoC have FULL juristiction of territories in Cyprus and then the RoC is yours and ours for the taking.

But can you seriously see Turkey doing that? Would the TC's simoultaneously go to Turkey and say, 'we want you out of Cyprus and we want the restablishment of constitutional order as per 1960 constitution'
and at the same time say to the RoC, 'We told Turkey to get out, we want to rejoin you in the RoC, help us rejoin and reintegrate into it'.

[turkcyp]

would you like the G/S to hold your hands while you go to the bathroom also?

No I do not need that. All I want is that RoC can specify how I can get involved in the electroal process as specified in 1960 constituiton.

But thanks for your concern about holding me while I go to bathroom. That was very nice of you. But thanks anyway, I can hold my own thing...

[turkcyp]

Force Turkey to establish constitutional order in Cyprus, force her to remove her troops, let the RoC have FULL juristiction of territories in Cyprus and then the RoC is yours and ours for the taking.

But can you seriously see Turkey doing that? Would the TC's simoultaneously go to Turkey and say, 'we want you out of Cyprus and we want the restablishment of constitutional order as per 1960 constitution'
and at the same time say to the RoC, 'We told Turkey to get out, we want to rejoin you in the RoC, help us rejoin and reintegrate into it'.

Hey, That is why a while ago I asked hypothetically what would RoC do if for some reason Turkey decides to pull its troops out of Cyprus tomorrow.

And honestly I believe the first troop reduction decision will come in year 2005. Do not be surprised when it happens like you were surprised when the borders were opened 3 years ago.

Take care

[brother]

I think you are missing the point, what if we done what you just said, and it was implemented, what would stop you from just steam rolling the tc into enclaves like you have done in the past, what can you assure us of our safety, we suffered at the hands of gc, that will never happen again, once bitten twice shy.

My scenario why do not all the gc go and demand that the tc are taken back in the ROC and we start operating togethar first then we will ask turkey to leave.

You started this mess with ENOSIS dreams now finish it by making the first move and bring the ROC back as it should be, tc and gc run.

[boulio]

not with 40,000 turkish occupation forces on the island,get them off and your free to join.

[turkcyp]

not with 40,000 turkish occupation forces on the island,get them off and your free to join.

What do you suggest we do? Get our guns and start attacking to people that saved our asses in 1974 from the GCs assault. Why should I trust you more than I trust them. At least they did not try to murder me like you did 30 years ago.

Sometimes I really am amazed how you do not see the inconsistency in your logic. You claim that part of your country is under occupation by foreign forces. This means all those TCs in north who were not refuges in 1974 (i.e. they used to live in north before 1974) still live under occupation. But you even refuse to give those people their rights as states in 1960 constitution.

I can see how you can say that you TurkCyp have no right because you are illegally living on a stolen property. Your property is actually in Paphos, therefore you do not get to enjoy the rights of RoC before you turn back to your property in Paphos.

But how can you justify those TCs who have never occupied any GC property after 1974. At least you have to give them some avenues of participating in RoC.

Anyway I guess you will claim that everything can only be settled at once. Everything has to turn to the way it was in 1974 so that you guys can get your rights back. But then I will turn back and ask, then why are your government continuously motivating people to take things into courts in Europe and try to solve the problem piece by piece the way you like it instead of saying, “Hold on dear GCs, this is a political situation in Cyprus, and everything will be solved at once with the settlement”

Anyway you are not going to convince me, and I am not going to convince you. May be we should start talking about other things like football, or weather.

Take care,

[Piratis]

Turkcyp, the 1959 agreements were not done just between TCs and GCs. Actually they were prepared mainly by the British, Greece and Turkey agreed, and we simply signed.

So to return to 1960, all involved (including Turkey) need to allow for it.

Don't pretend that TCs and Turkey are unrelated and that TCs have nothing to do with Turkey and her actions. I don't know if you call Turkey your "motherland", but most TCs do. And as we say "The sins of parents bring troubles to their children" and this is true for both TCs and GCs.

[turkcyp]

Oh great Piratis,

Turkcyp, the 1959 agreements were not done just between TCs and GCs. Actually they were prepared mainly by the British, Greece and Turkey agreed, and we simply signed.

Who forced TCs and GCs to sign it? Nobody. Just accept that given the conditions of 1959 it was the best we could get.

TCs have signed it because it was a constitutional system that we thought would have protect us from being dominated by GCs. (We were wrong. After 3 years we saw that the was not the case).

GCs have signed it because it was an easy way to kick the Brits our so that you can stay with TCs alone in the republic and achieve Enosis. After you thought, the world would not have realized if you have taken our rights from constitution and made us a part of Greece. (You were wrong. After 14 years you saw this was not the case.)

But given the conditions that was the best solution. It was either that or armed struggle between GCs and British. And TCs were also getting a toll on these struggle as well, because we are the minority and because we have trusted Brits more that we have trusted you.

(However I agree with you that it was not negotiated between us but just given to us mainly by Greece and Turkey.)

So to return to 1960, all involved (including Turkey) need to allow for it.

So basically are you saying that return to 1960 constitution i snot what you want right now. We can not speak for others, neither can we decide our actions relating others. We can only speak for TCs and GCs. I can safely say that there is a decent amount of TC society that is rather be in 1960 constitution to Annan Plan (in terms of constitutional rights). But because Annan Plan provided bizonality lots of people agreed on it because 1960 agreements did not have bizonality. So for a lot of TCs, from 1960 they have given up some constitutional rights but have obtained some temporary bizonality (it was 18 years I think).

Don't pretend that TCs and Turkey are unrelated and that TCs have nothing to do with Turkey and her actions. I don't know if you call Turkey your "motherland", but most TCs do. And as we say "The sins of parents bring troubles to their children" and this is true for both TCs and GCs.

Hey I have never pretended that. All the way from the beginning I have always said that Cyprus problem is a political problem that can only be solved through political means.

But the GC society seem to see the whole problem as one of legal problem so they try everything to get their objectives with legal means. But when you make things legal problem than you loose the chance of saying the whole pieces of the problem is related because in law wherever you go, whatever law you apply, one illegal act does not justify another illegal act. So you loose the chance of saying that you have stolen my land so I am stealing your constitutional rights.

All you can do is to apply to courts and try to get your rights back. And the courts are not going to say you do not have this right back you stole this from the person, or you can limit this right because he stole this from you. Everything is evaluated on the individual case by case.

So GCs should decide if this is a legal problem or a political one. If it is mainly a legal problem then all you can do is to apply to courts individually and hope that Turkey will compensate you, and can not say that TCs have the blame to, apart from again individual cases that you can bring against individual TCs that live on GC land etc. etc.

If you decide that the problem is political in nature, then you should not expect Turkey to leave the island before there is a complete solution accepted by both GCs and TCs on the island.

That is my opinion,

Take care,

[magikthrill]

turkcyp,

by claiming that the Cyprus problem is just a political problem than you justify the actions of GCs for enosis.

Politically, the GCs were allowed to start a revolution (as did the Greeks in Greece) to liberate their country from occupying forces and be reunited with the remaining of their ancestral homeland.

Legally, howeer, enosis went against the constitution and was hence illegal.

[turkcyp]

turkcyp,

by claiming that the Cyprus problem is just a political problem than you justify the actions of GCs for enosis.

Politically, the GCs were allowed to start a revolution (as did the Greeks in Greece) to liberate their country from occupying forces and be reunited with the remaining of their ancestral homeland.

Legally, howeer, enosis went against the constitution and was hence illegal.

Never said anything as such that Enosis was a legality problem. Enosis was the mother of the political problems.

At the theoretical level, what you guys always keep on missing is the interaction between politics and law. Politics makes the laws, and therefore define legality or illegality. If you guys succeeded in Enosis (which was a political decision and therefore a political problem for us) then all the laws about RoC would have been changed accordingly and there would not be a legality problem relating to Enosis.

However because politically you guys failed to achieve it, it became illegal under current structure. (Winners write the history!!! ).

The same thing happen to us as well. The TRNC was a political decision, but because we failed to make the world accept it, it failed and therefore it is illegal currently. If one day the world decide to recognize TRNC then it would not be a legality problem anymore.

Coming to Cyprus problem. If you guys say that it is a problem of legality then you guys are essentially claiming that RoC is still the same as in 1960, and therefore the north is occupied and therefore everything we do is illegal. But this also puts you under obligation of extending all the rights of 1960 constitution to us, because in law two wrongs does not make right.

However if you guys accept that Cyprus problem is a political problem, then it basically means all the TRNC, war, occupation are of political acts and are not necessarily against law because they are currently are trying to redefine the law. So at this point you can justify not putting 1960 constitution into practice because we are in a political chase game and trying to redefine what is legal or not.

Logic is very similar to the following. Until the parliament decides to change the law, the law stays as it is. What parliament does is politics, and its decisions define the future of law. But you can not claim that parliament is doing something illegal because it is trying to change the current law.

Anyway this has become another long and complicated post, I hope you got my point.

Take care,