Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Do you understand why these "illegalities and crimes" as you put them are happening or have come about??? I'm not trying to be patronizing just trying to bring home that what you complain about is greatly your own doing.

Excuses can be many, but the truth is simple: These illegalities and crimes exist because the Turks have the power to force them on the weak GCs.
If for example the balance of power was reversed, do you think the GCs would not find a ton of excuses to commit crimes against you if thats what they wanted to do?
As I said before it is a question between accepting peace, or finding an excuse to continue the war because you believe it suits you better.

Even in the driving example you can choose not to drive or get someone else to drive, being in new safety measures, ban driving, you have options, you have alternatives and the current situation is just another option and was brought about by circumstances which many of us had nothing to do with.

If you choose not to drive then you are limiting yourself and not violating the rights of others. You have every right to do that. You also have the right to take the license plates of drivers that are breaking the rules and give them to the police. You have the right to ask for stricter rules and fines.
There are a lot of things that can be done in order to limit the risk without violating the rights of all drivers indiscriminately, something which you simply have no right to do.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Excuses can be many, but the truth is simple: These illegalities and crimes exist because the Turks have the power to force them on the weak GCs.
If for example the balance of power was reversed, do you think the GCs would not find a ton of excuses to commit crimes against you if thats what they wanted to do?
As I said before it is a question between accepting peace, or finding an excuse to continue the war because you believe it suits you better.

You are avoiding the question like the plague, did GCs not contribute to the current "illegalities and crimes" you complain about, even rejection of the Annan plan is a perpetuation of the current situation...so you must stand up and take responsibility. If you want to reverse or erase "illegalities and crimes" as you see them then isn't it time you took the bull by the horns creating situations where trust could be built rather than sustaining the monotonous stance that your leaders display today. Show us that a united Cyprus will have a functioning TC community that will not be pushed to one side, show us that a united Cyprus is a far better option than the TRNC. As long as you are unable to put into action what you preach then you will continue to look over the fence waiting for that swing you long for, but let me remind that swing could always go the other way.

If you choose not to drive then you are limiting yourself and not violating the rights of others. You have every right to do that. You also have the right to take the license plates of drivers that are breaking the rules and give them to the police. You have the right to ask for stricter rules and fines.
There are a lot of things that can be done in order to limit the risk without violating the rights of all drivers indiscriminately, something which you simply have no right to do.

But first of all you have to agree that you want to share the same roads, I for example would never want to drive in Paris or Istanbul as the cost could be my life, the same goes for living and sharing with GCs, if the risk is to high then alternatives have to be found and the present divide is just one of those.

[observer]

Piratis

that "1959" can be changed to many many other chronologies and that "GC" can be changed to "TC" as well. If we will go back in the past looking for excuses then we will find tons.

True, but it happens to cover the period of my life that I remember and the question was why do I mistrust GCs. I am not too concerned with what happened 300 years ago or 100 years ago.

The question is: Do you want to finally have peace or you want an excuse to continue the war because you believe it suits you better? The feeling I get from most of you is that it is the 2nd that you want.

Sorry if I give that my impression. I think of myself as a 'solutionist'. I don't care too much if it is partition or a federation where I can be sure that GCs will not use their numerical supriority to discriminate against TCs. My experience and much of the comment on this site make me fear that GCs would use the government to benefit GCs only. There's enough low-level coruption of GCs discriminating to benefit their own family/political supporters etc to make this a real reason for mistrust (and I know that the same can be said of TCs but can you imagine how much worse it will be if GCs have the possibility to discriminate against TCs)

However in general I will agree in something with you: If GCs are forced to agree for things that are undemocratic and/or against their human rights then you should be certain that such a forced agreement will not last for long. Cypriots are European people and they want their democracy and their human rights, and such things really can not be compromised.

No one forces GC leaders to agree to these agreements. They just have to say 'no'. Denktas did it for years! Why I mistrust them is they agree to something and then come back to Cyprus and break the agreement because it did not give them all they want.

It is like you want to buy a car from me. I want 10,000 Pounds. You want to pay 8,000. We agree on 9,000. Is it right that you then rob me of 1,000 because I 'forced' you to 'give away' more than you wanted to? That is how, it seems to me, that GC leaders have behaved.

[Get Real!]

Yes you do listen andri ....... thank you


turkish ... thank you very much for the honour. I guess I don't make a good liar, that's why I cannot be a president.

Ei re kani se!

[Piratis]

You are avoiding the question like the plague, did GCs not contribute to the current "illegalities and crimes" you complain about, even rejection of the Annan plan is a perpetuation of the current situation...so you must stand up and take responsibility.

GCs have responsibility for some crimes and illegalities during a small part of our history. However they are definetly not resposnible for any current crimes and illegalities. The Annan plan was a proposal, and this is why it is written in the first line of the plan itself that it would be null and void. It was neither illegal nor a crime to reject that totally unfair for us plan. The occupation of Cyprus is illegal and so are the human rights violations of 100s of thousands of people.

. If you want to reverse or erase "illegalities and crimes" as you see them then isn't it time you took the bull by the horns creating situations where trust could be built rather than sustaining the monotonous stance that your leaders display today. Show us that a united Cyprus will have a functioning TC community that will not be pushed to one side, show us that a united Cyprus is a far better option than the TRNC. As long as you are unable to put into action what you preach then you will continue to look over the fence waiting for that swing you long for, but let me remind that swing could always go the other way.

RoC has done several things, like free health care, for TCs. I am not saying that more can not be done. However what you want, I suspect, are things that will give recognition to the pseudo state in the occupied areas, and thats obviously not helping the aim of unification, would it?
What I preach is human and democratic rights for ALL. But at the same time I support that those that commit crimes and illegalities should face consequences, until they change their mind. I don't think I ever preached that TCs should enjoy their full rights while at the same time continue to violate the rights of GCs, did i? Therefore for what I want to happen, both sides have to believe in it and work for it, not just the GCs.

ut first of all you have to agree that you want to share the same roads, I for example would never want to drive in Paris or Istanbul as the cost could be my life, the same goes for living and sharing with GCs, if the risk is to high then alternatives have to be found and the present divide is just one of those.

It is your and my right to drive on whatever roads we want within our country. If you don't want to drive on some roads then don't. But you can not restrict me from my rights just because you do not trust me.

[Piratis]

True, but it happens to cover the period of my life that I remember and the question was why do I mistrust GCs. I am not too concerned with what happened 300 years ago or 100 years ago.

So you can remember 1959 and you can not remember today? Are you also saying that in some years from now when nobody will have live memories of the 60s, the 60s will be irrelevant as well?

Sorry if I give that my impression. I think of myself as a 'solutionist'. I don't care too much if it is partition or a federation where I can be sure that GCs will not use their numerical supriority to discriminate against TCs.

And you want to achieve this certainty by discriminating against GCs and violating their human rights? And the result of that you call a "solution"?
It is time to cut the "evil GC" theories. There are many multi-ethnic countries, which managed to solve such problems with human rights, democracy, affirmative action and many other things that can protect those that are numerically less without violating the human rights and discriminating against the great majority of the population.

My experience and much of the comment on this site make me fear that GCs would use the government to benefit GCs only. There's enough low-level coruption of GCs discriminating to benefit their own family/political supporters etc to make this a real reason for mistrust (and I know that the same can be said of TCs but can you imagine how much worse it will be if GCs have the possibility to discriminate against TCs)

Well, even here the word for that is rusfetti, which is Cyprus tradition since the Ottomans. I hope you are not going to blame GCs exclusively for that as well. As I said in a previous post TCs will also have ministers, policemen, governmental employees etc, so rousfetti is a problem in general, not just for TCs. Things are getting better and I believe now with the EU things on that department will improve.

No one forces GC leaders to agree to these agreements. They just have to say 'no'. Denktas did it for years! Why I mistrust them is they agree to something and then come back to Cyprus and break the agreement because it did not give them all they want.

It is like you want to buy a car from me. I want 10,000 Pounds. You want to pay 8,000. We agree on 9,000. Is it right that you then rob me of 1,000 because I 'forced' you to 'give away' more than you wanted to? That is how, it seems to me, that GC leaders have behaved.

If it was just your "car" it would be no problem. But it is not just yours. It is ours as well and you are keeping it hostage and asking for ransom.
See the difference?

[askimwos]

Piratis

that "1959" can be changed to many many other chronologies and that "GC" can be changed to "TC" as well. If we will go back in the past looking for excuses then we will find tons.

True, but it happens to cover the period of my life that I remember and the question was why do I mistrust GCs. I am not too concerned with what happened 300 years ago or 100 years ago.

The question is: Do you want to finally have peace or you want an excuse to continue the war because you believe it suits you better? The feeling I get from most of you is that it is the 2nd that you want.

Sorry if I give that my impression. I think of myself as a 'solutionist'. I don't care too much if it is partition or a federation where I can be sure that GCs will not use their numerical supriority to discriminate against TCs. My experience and much of the comment on this site make me fear that GCs would use the government to benefit GCs only. There's enough low-level coruption of GCs discriminating to benefit their own family/political supporters etc to make this a real reason for mistrust (and I know that the same can be said of TCs but can you imagine how much worse it will be if GCs have the possibility to discriminate against TCs)

However in general I will agree in something with you: If GCs are forced to agree for things that are undemocratic and/or against their human rights then you should be certain that such a forced agreement will not last for long. Cypriots are European people and they want their democracy and their human rights, and such things really can not be compromised.

No one forces GC leaders to agree to these agreements. They just have to say 'no'. Denktas did it for years! Why I mistrust them is they agree to something and then come back to Cyprus and break the agreement because it did not give them all they want.

It is like you want to buy a car from me. I want 10,000 Pounds. You want to pay 8,000. We agree on 9,000. Is it right that you then rob me of 1,000 because I 'forced' you to 'give away' more than you wanted to? That is how, it seems to me, that GC leaders have behaved.

This is the second time that you misinform about the GC decision in Bourgenstok. The GC never said that it will accept the plan, quite the opposite happened actually. Please either correct this or supply evidence that shows that the GC side accepted the plan in Bourgestok.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

GCs have responsibility for some crimes and illegalities during a small part of our history. However they are definetly not resposnible for any current crimes and illegalities.

You don't get it do you? Did you or did you not have input into causing the current divide? which is the result of past actions and deny you certain rights.

The Annan plan was a proposal, and this is why it is written in the first line of the plan itself that it would be null and void. It was neither illegal nor a crime to reject that totally unfair for us plan.

It was an option, either continuation of the same or change of direction according to AP, you chose continuation because you claim the AP was not right for you. These are all choices and opportunities you rejected this solution.

RoC has done several things, like free health care, for TCs. I am not saying that more can not be done.

These are crumbs which the majority of TCs do not even utilize, the political benefits for GCs far outweigh the cost and you know it. What I say is that try stopping them if you can, if you accepted these people into citizenship you cannot refuse this service, but hey thanks all the same but I still feel its not done for the right reasons.

However what you want, I suspect, are things that will give recognition to the pseudo state in the occupied areas, and thats obviously not helping the aim of unification, would it?

That is where you are wrong, we are not after recognition only to enjoy the benefits that all other people enjoy all over the world everyday, that is not to much to ask in my opinion.

What I preach is human and democratic rights for ALL.

Saying this a million times doesn't make it come true or ensure that it will be administered right, there are many so called democratic and human rights abiding countries where discrimination and abuse runs riot.

But at the same time I support that those that commit crimes and illegalities should face consequences, until they change their mind.

By embargoes, war and torture? does that make you any better?

don't think I ever preached that TCs should enjoy their full rights while at the same time continue to violate the rights of GCs, did i? Therefore for what I want to happen, both sides have to believe in it and work for it, not just the GCs.

We want equal rights under the current circumstances, can you work that out?

It is your and my right to drive on whatever roads we want within our country. If you don't want to drive on some roads then don't. But you can not restrict me from my rights just because you do not trust me.

This is getting silly but here goes I can close off the road and say private property as I am part owner to ensure you do not enter and endanger me and my family through reckless driving, to me life is paramount and will always be above property.

[DT.]

Piratis

that "1959" can be changed to many many other chronologies and that "GC" can be changed to "TC" as well. If we will go back in the past looking for excuses then we will find tons.

True, but it happens to cover the period of my life that I remember and the question was why do I mistrust GCs. I am not too concerned with what happened 300 years ago or 100 years ago.

The question is: Do you want to finally have peace or you want an excuse to continue the war because you believe it suits you better? The feeling I get from most of you is that it is the 2nd that you want.

Sorry if I give that my impression. I think of myself as a 'solutionist'. I don't care too much if it is partition or a federation where I can be sure that GCs will not use their numerical supriority to discriminate against TCs. My experience and much of the comment on this site make me fear that GCs would use the government to benefit GCs only. There's enough low-level coruption of GCs discriminating to benefit their own family/political supporters etc to make this a real reason for mistrust (and I know that the same can be said of TCs but can you imagine how much worse it will be if GCs have the possibility to discriminate against TCs)

However in general I will agree in something with you: If GCs are forced to agree for things that are undemocratic and/or against their human rights then you should be certain that such a forced agreement will not last for long. Cypriots are European people and they want their democracy and their human rights, and such things really can not be compromised.

No one forces GC leaders to agree to these agreements. They just have to say 'no'. Denktas did it for years! Why I mistrust them is they agree to something and then come back to Cyprus and break the agreement because it did not give them all they want.

It is like you want to buy a car from me. I want 10,000 Pounds. You want to pay 8,000. We agree on 9,000. Is it right that you then rob me of 1,000 because I 'forced' you to 'give away' more than you wanted to? That is how, it seems to me, that GC leaders have behaved.

This is the second time that you misinform about the GC decision in Bourgenstok. The GC never said that it will accept the plan, quite the opposite happened actually. Please either correct this or supply evidence that shows that the GC side accepted the plan in Bourgestok.

The resons the plan went to the arbitration of kofi Annan to fill in the gaps was because there was NO agreement in Burgenstok. Thats what killed the plan for the GC's Annan included 9out of 10 amendments that the Turkish side (not the TC side) requested.

[Piratis]

You don't get it do you? Did you or did you not have input into causing the current divide? which is the result of past actions and deny you certain rights.

Here you go again with the "evil GC" theories. If you believe that GCs should be punished for their past actions, then the punishment of TCs due to their past and current actions should be 100 times more, and not to be rewarded on the expense of GCs.

It was an option, either continuation of the same or change of direction according to AP, you chose continuation because you claim the AP was not right for you. These are all choices and opportunities you rejected this solution.

So say they take you hostage and ask if you prefer to cut off your arm or to cut off your leg. You will be satisfied because they are giving you options?
Where is the option for democracy and human rights? Nowhere!

These are crumbs which the majority of TCs do not even utilize, the political benefits for GCs far outweigh the cost and you know it. What I say is that try stopping them if you can, if you accepted these people into citizenship you cannot refuse this service, but hey thanks all the same but I still feel its not done for the right reasons.

If you also did what you are obligated to do we would be perfectly satisfied regardless of why you did it. Instead you choose illegalities though.

That is where you are wrong, we are not after recognition only to enjoy the benefits that all other people enjoy all over the world everyday, that is not to much to ask in my opinion.

We want that too. So I will ask you again: How about ending all illegalities so everybody can enjoy all the benefits, not just you?

Also, you say you don't want recognition, but we all know that you do. So why try to hide it now?

Saying this a million times doesn't make it come true or ensure that it will be administered right, there are many so called democratic and human rights abiding countries where discrimination and abuse runs riot.

Like Turkey you mean? The ones that rule you?

By embargoes, war and torture? does that make you any better?

The war is your choice and the embargoes are the result of it.

We want equal rights under the current circumstances, can you work that out?

Sure. Current situation violates our rights. So to be equal some of your rights should be violated as well. However more of our rights are violated than yours. So I wouldn't ask for equal if I were you, it wouldn't suit you that way.

This is getting silly but here goes I can close off the road and say private property as I am part owner to ensure you do not enter and endanger me and my family through reckless driving, to me life is paramount and will always be above property.

Its getting silly because you took a clear example and you are making fairy tales from it.
The country, just like the public roads, belong to all the citizens of the country. A group of citizens can not gang together and restrict the rest from enjoying their rights, simply because they do not trust them.