Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

While it is not my intention to interfer in the ongoing argument, the above does raise an interesting point and also a valid question that many GC's have with respect to any future solution. How do the TC's see the insistence of their own leadership that in a united (or "united") Cyprus, some Cypriots should still have different (less) rights because of their ethnic background? And can any such demand be described as racist or not?

O.

We are not saying that some cypriots should have any less rights. We are saying as indivduals and as communites they shpould have the same rights. Such a demand is not racist it is a demand for a federal solution.

If your logic was correct then the EU itself should be descibed as a racist insitution (and about 10 times more so based on the 'inequlity' of GC representation in the EU vs say the UKs and TC in Cyprus). Do you claim the EU is fundamentaly a racist insitituion? Or do you accept that it is federal in it's nature?

[Othellos]

We are not saying that some cypriots should have any less rights. We are saying as indivduals and as communites they shpould have the same rights. Such a demand is not racist it is a demand for a federal solution.

If your logic was correct then the EU itself should be descibed as a racist insitution (and about 10 times more so based on the 'inequlity' of GC representation in the EU vs say the UKs and TC in Cyprus). Do you claim the EU is fundamentaly a racist insitituion? Or do you accept that it is federal in it's nature?

What I had in mind was the right of individual Cypriot citizens to move, settle, work and acquire property. It is my understanding that the TC's insist that after a solution the GC's have limited rights in the TC administered region with respect to the above. And this when any Cypriot citizen will be able to live, work, settle and aquire property anywhere else in the EU. Am I mistaken or not? And is this a racist demand that the TC's have or not?

O.

[erolz]

What I had in mind was the right of individual Cypriot citizens to move, settle, work and acquire property. It is my understanding that the TC's insist that after a solution the GC's have limited rights in the TC administered region with respect to the above. And this when any Cypriot citizen will be able to live, work, settle and aquire property anywhere else in the EU. Am I mistaken or not? And is this a racist demand that the TC's have or not?

O.

What we want is some 'degrogations' from the EU norms and for a reasonable period of time / when it becomes clear that our concerns are no longer relevant. The reason we want this is for our protection (political and physical) - not because we hate GC as a race and think that all they know how to do is kill, rape and steal. This desire is no more racist than the degrogations the EU has already applied to member EU states as part of their accession or to the same limits being placed on Turks should they accede. So no I do not think this desire is unreasonable or racist - and certainly not racist in the way that saying 'all turks know how to do is kill, rape and steal is racist.

You seem good at asking questions but less keen to answer them?

[magikthrill]

This desire is no more racist than the degrogations the EU has already applied to member EU states as part of their accession or to the same limits being placed on Turks should they accede.

Can you elaborate on this more, erolz?

[erolz]

This desire is no more racist than the degrogations the EU has already applied to member EU states as part of their accession or to the same limits being placed on Turks should they accede.

Can you elaborate on this more, erolz?

When various countries sought accession to the EU one of the requirments on their accsession has been to limit their citizens freedom to live and work in any Eu country. So far these degrogations have been for a specific time period - but one of the things agreed (accepted) prior to Turkey's start of negotiations was that there may be a need for a permanent limit on Turks freedom to live and work anywhere in the EU after accession. So the point is that the idea of limits on an EU citizens freedom to live and work anywhere is nothing new. Neither is it generaly considered racist (unlike saying the only thing an entire race can do is kill, rape and steal - which is racist).

Yes it is true that in the case of Cyprus these 'degrogations' (exceptions) to the EU norms would have to be accepted by GC - even after it has acceded, which is different from the normal pattern in the EU (normaly they are accepted as part of the accession process). They would also have to be accepted by all the other member states as well, which again as Turkcyp has pointed out may not be an easy task. The main point though is that there being limits on Eu citizens to full freedom to live and work anywhere in the EU is nothing exceptional or new or considered unreasonable by the EU as an instituion when they are deemed necessary. It is also not considered by most to be racist (unlike etc etc)

Is that elaborate enough?

[Piratis]

Supporting a federal solution in Cyprus based on a concept and degree of equality between the two states is not racist - just as it is undemocratic or against human rights. You claim it is but no one of any susbstance would seem to agree with you.

Wrong.

In federations (e.g US) while states have some level on equality, this "state equality" doesn't create discrimination based on race. Do you know any state that says "We accept only up to 20% of blacks in our state, if more of them come they will not have equal political rights"?

Stop hiding. What you are asking for is a clear discrimination based on race, and only racists want such things.

To the GCs of the forum: One thing is to say that we are forced to accept some things because we are the weak, and another thing is to say that the things we might be forced to accept are fair and good.
What the other side is asking from us is clearly racist. Even if we are forced to accept it, an answer should be given when these same racist people have the nerve to come and call others as racist.
Even if we assume that I am a racist, the super racist Erolz is not the one to give lessons to me.

[Othellos]

What we want is some 'degrogations' from the EU norms and for a reasonable period of time / when it becomes clear that our concerns are no longer relevant. The reason we want this is for our protection (political and physical) - not because we hate GC as a race and think that all they know how to do is kill, rape and steal.

The way I understand it is that the TC's seek permanent derogations. Am I mistaken?

This desire is no more racist than the degrogations the EU has already applied to member EU states as part of their accession or to the same limits being placed on Turks should they accede.

Turkey is not a EU member and we cannot be sure if they will ever be one. Therefore any discussion about what limits may be imposed on Turkey in 10 or 20 years from now is imho irrelevant to this discussion about Cyprus which is already a full EU member.

So no I do not think this desire is unreasonable or racist - and certainly not racist in the way that saying 'all turks know how to do is kill, rape and steal is racist.

If Cyprus was not the country of the GC's as well, then perhaps this point could be considered as a valid one. But the GC's are from all over Cyprus and they have always lived throughout the island until they were evicted by force 30 years ago. For this reason I think that to limit their right to live, work, settle etc (i.e. their right to exist) over 1/3 of their island is totally racist, especially when the sole criterion for doing so is their ethnic background.

You seem good at asking questions but less keen to answer them?

All I can say is that I do my best to answer questions and participate in discussions. Let me know if asking questions bothers you in any way.

O.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Stop hiding. What you are asking for is a clear discrimination based on race, and only racists want such things.

Piratis,

it is true that the TCs are asking for a clear discrimination based on race, but I don't think they are doing this because they are racists. They are doing it because they are afraid of us - afraid that we will try to cut them out of the decision making process.

In the EU and elsewhere in the western world, whenever a minority has reason to fear that they will be socially, economically or politically excluded, it is common to find measures of positive discrimination, (eg a company placing a quota for minimum number of women in top management ranks, or of minimum number of black employees, and so on.)

What TCs are demanding in Cyprus is a different spin on the positive discrimination theme ... to cover political rights and residence rights - because these are the two issues on which they feel that they will be discriminated against.

But let me ask you another question: Are you not concerned about the prospect of Cyprus being legally settled by a million Turkish immigrants, when Turkey joins the EU? Wouldn't you want some permanent limitations based on race, to ensure that Cyprus is not overrun by Turks? Personally, I would. It scares me to think that so many Turks could come to Cyprus in the future, to the extent that Cyprus will be more Turkish than Greek. Based on my own fear, I understand and respect the TC fear that their constituent state might be overrun by GCs ...

So, in my opinion, the best solution overall ( the one that best leads to peace and security), would be to place permanent residence limits, both on the number of Turks that can come and reside in Cyprus, and on the number of GCs that can go and reside in the TC constituent state. I don't care how many legal ideals this approach ignores ... quite simply, it is what we all need in order to feel secure.

P.S. I do believe, ofcourse, that this residence limit should be generous: eg, allowing up to 33% of residents of TC state to be greek speakers. This would amount to about 80,000 GCs who could live in the north, so it is not a limit we would likely feel as restrictive any time soon.

[Piratis]

Ok, first I will remind you the second point for the meaning of racist:

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Note, that we are talking about about a discrimination based on race not a discrimination based on citizenship. You seem to confuse the two. If discrimination based on citizenship was considered racism, then all countries would be racist ones, since they all treat their own citizens in a different way than foreign citizens.

The EU is made up by independent countries. A citizen of Poland for example is not a citizen of Cyprus. Because we belong to the same union we agreed that citizens from EU countries will be treated in a different way than citizens from non EU countries. However, this doesn't change the fact that they are all foreigners, and not citizens of Cyprus.

If what we are going to have is one country, this means one citizenship, and this means that you can not discriminate people of the same citizenship but of different race. Such thing is racism, and people that support it racists.

it is true that the TCs are asking for a clear discrimination based on race, but I don't think they are doing this because they are racists. They are doing it because they are afraid of us - afraid that we will try to cut them out of the decision making process.

So what you are saying is that being a racist can be excused under some circumstances? Even if we assume this can be accepted, what can not be accepted is that these same racists come here to accuse others as racists.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Piratis,

as I said before, I don't consider measures of positive discrimination based on race to be racist.

Racism normally has the connotation of oppression of, or hatred towards, an ethnic minority.

In contrast, positive discrimination (ie granting extraordinary privileges to particular groups that might be under threat and therefore require protection) is a prevalent practice within the EU and elsewhere, and almost no one suggests that it should be considered racism.