Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Well, Erolz, as far as I am concerned you are a thief since you support the stealing of our properties and as you have admitted before your aunt is now "owning" what really belongs to a Greek Cypriot.

I have 'admited' (told the truth) thay my aunt lives in a house that used to be GC property before 74. You give ner back her husband (an innocent murdered by GC fanatics - 10 years before 74 and she became a 'theif' according to you) and she will give you back 3 times such properties and more. Or you get you RoC to comensate her for the loss of her husband (for 40 years) because not only did they fail in their duty of care to protect him but they activel encouraged and were involved in the violence that led to his murder at the hands of GC. So you deal with her claim that pre dates yours by 10 years and then you can have 'your' property back.

The issue of if she is a theif or not is a complicated one and a matter of opinion. The issue of if you are racist or not is not complicated or a matter of opinion. You have clearly expressed racist views (many times) and thus are clearly a racist.

Funny that you have no problem to live along with such criminals and suddenly you became so sensitive about a fact of history I stated.

I have no problem living along such people because despite what you say she is not a theif and a criminal (unlike the GC who murdered her husband and alongside which you live). She is a victim and has suffered much pain and suffering far beyond that that the loss of property causes.

There you go again with your race hate propaganda - stating that it is a fact of history (that the only things turks can do is steal, rape and kill)! I am not sensitive to historical facts (or even their one sided interpretation). What I am sensitive too is racist hate propaganda of the sort you are posting in these forums.

While expressing views in an internet forum is not a crime, your actions are.

I am going around calling you a criminal? I have called you a racist because, by your own words, you are a racist. I have also pointed out that in the UK under the incitement to racial hatred statutes, you may well be committing an offence with your nasty hateful racist comments and views.

It is our fault that sit and talk with people like you, that don't even respect our own homes, and you supported the killing of thousands (and NEVER said a single sorry about it) and they continue even today to support the violation of human rights of thousands of people.

I am deeply sorry for the loss of so many GC (and other) lives in Cyprus in 74 and all others times. I have the deepest sympathy for those that suffered loss and pain. What I do not accept is that TC are solely to blame for the regrettable events of 74 or that these events happened because TC are thieves.

When you are such kind of people how can anybody like your race?

Who is asking you to 'like' us? I am condeming your racist attitudes and postings, not asking you to come and give me some 'good loving' (and I shudder at the thought)

My only mistake here is that I am judging everybody based on what I see from some people here. Exceptions always exists of course. But are they many? Or most of them are like you? If you tell me that you and your kind are just an exception, then I truly apologize for misjudging the whole race based on a few scams.

No your 'mistake' was to show clearly through your own posts that you are an unrepeantant racist. Most such racists are more 'careful'.

[boulio]

erolz was your uncle killed in cold blood or as a combatant?

[erolz]

erolz was your uncle killed in cold blood or as a combatant?

Part of the tradgey that befell my uncle is told here

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... &archive=1

The stuff about giving back 3 houses was what my Aunt said to the GC gentleman in the story (though its not in the article.) I also note that the GC gentleman concerned has made no contact with my Aunt since his visit.

More infomation can be found here relating to my uncles murder and the event that precipitated it

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Patrick-chp%203.htm

(section f 6th paragraph down)

My uncle was one of the 32-35 TC murdered in this incident.

It is my belief uncle was 'chosen' by these thugs specificaly because he was not an extremist, was not a violent man, was well respected by memebers of both communites and against the advice of TMT and TC leadership he continued to go to work (for a British Bank - Barlays) in a GC controlled area. That's the way terror works. You target the innocent to make all afraid. After this event my Aunt (and her 3 orphaned children) need no 'encouragment' from TMT to fear GC and to leave her home to seek saftey in a TC enclave!

This was 10 years before my aunt became a 'theif' (according to Piratis - talk about adding insult to injury!)

[Piratis]

So according to Erolz, the family members of the 6000 people that were killed during the invasion, and the ones that were killed before by TMT and other Turkish Cypriot terrorists now have the right to kill, rape and steal as a revenge and thats perfectly normal.

Maybe Erolz, this is the kind of sick brain that the people that killed your uncle had. They killed your uncle to take revenge for something else that happened in the past, not by your uncle but by some other Turk(s).
If revenge is an excuse for a crime, then the murder of your uncle could as easily be excused as your aunt stealing the property. Is that what you want? The continuation of the circle of blood forever? I am not excusing the murderers of your uncle, but you are apparently excusing the stealing of our property.

The whole "racist" story here started when Insan claimed that "Hellens started it first". This is obviously a lie, and I had to remind everybody how everything really started, because there was a time that Turks simply did not exist in our area. It is very interesting that you want to say lies like "Hellens started it and we were just responding" and when the facts of history are given to you, you start the accusations and the crying.

Personally I never claimed that 74 events was the fault of only the TCs. Actually for 1974 the fault of TCs comes after the fault of Turkey, Greece and Greek Cypriots.

Before 1960 the fault goes mainly to the colonialists (and TC supported them) because they didn't allow Cypriots to decide their future in a democratic way as they should have done.

From 1963 until 68 the fault goes mainly (not excursively) to the GCs because they didn't try harder to make the dysfunctional agreements of 1960 to work, and they decided to resort to violence to "solve" the problem. But violence never solved any problem. This was true in 63, this was true in 74 and this is true today also.

But from 74 until today, the TCs and Turkey share almost the exclusive blame for the continuation of the occupation. This is because they demand outrageous things that can not be accepted, and they want to keep what does not belong to them.

I believe I am very objective, and I have no intend to split people into good and bad. Both sides have made mistakes, and now we should not look who started it first, or whose turn is to take the revenge, but how we can stop the injustices for everybody once and for all.
However when some people come in here and they excuse the stealing of our properties and they claim that they should keep them, then what do you want me to call such people? Thieves is the only word that can describe them. All its needed from your side is to accept that you can not keep what does not belong to you, and cut the excuses. When you do that, then you will not be thieves and I will not call you that way.

[Saint Jimmy]

Piratis,

I used to think you were generally unreasonable in what you say, but this post makes sense to me, for the most part. Although we don't agree on everything you say, this post impressed me.

Still, I'm not sure, but I think I asked you again, and I can't remember what your response was, if there was any (but then again, I'm not even sure if it was you I asked): you state that both sides have many mistakes, ergo I presume you admit that we've made mistakes as well. So, it follows that we should pay the price of our mistakes (whatever they were), right? This price would obviously come in the form of concessions on the political settlement... But the way I interpret what you say, I can't see what sort of concessions you would agree to.

Maybe you could elaborate on this point a bit.

[Piratis]

Yes, we made many mistakes, and we committed crimes. However this was the case from the other side as well.

I believe both sides suffered, and both sides paid for their mistakes and crimes. I can't believe that anybody can claim that the invasion and 30 years of occupation is not enough punishment for GCs.

I am more than willing to forgive TCs and even Turks for everything they have done to us. If they do the same then we can start fresh, and finally have something good for all Cypriots.

However some people want to use the past selectively[/] as an excuse to apply in Cyprus something unfair, against even the most basic human rights. They do so because they have the power to do it. Such move is wrong, because even if we assume that GCs are forced to accept such thing now, at some point they will revolt and the circle of blood will continue.

So it is time to stop seeking revenge and punishments. Because revenge brings revenge that brings revenge and so on and so forth. Lets just accept that we both got punished, and like prisoners that get released, we are now free from our past (most of us are "new" people anyways) and that we can build a new [b]truly united Cyprus were the human rights of everybody are respected.

That said, I already stated that a true strong federation is acceptable, and also transitional periods will be needed since things can not happen from one day to the next.

[Saint Jimmy]

That said, I already stated that a true strong federation is acceptable, and also transitional periods will be needed since things can not happen from one day to the next.

OK, I agree with your rationale. The only point I can make is that what you ask is for all refugees to be allowed to return, etc., etc., obviously undoing the effects of the Turkish invasion/intervention (what we call 'their crime'). My question is 'how do we undo our mistakes?' What you are asking for could be interpreted as letting bygones be bygones, but only when it comes to the 63-68 period (in effect, 'forget about that, we both made mistakes'), but not after that ('all the effects of the 74 invasion/intervention should be undone completely and unconditionally'). I hope you understand the spirit of what I'm saying.

On the quote above, a true strong federation is not a concession, is it? We agreed to that decades ago, so it's a given, a constant, not a concession...
Plus, I can't see how any solution can be implemented without transitional periods. They, too, are a necessary evil, not a concession, not even an option.

[Piratis]

OK, I agree with your rationale. The only point I can make is that what you ask is for all refugees to be allowed to return, etc., etc., obviously undoing the effects of the Turkish invasion/intervention (what we call 'their crime'). My question is 'how do we undo our mistakes?' What you are asking for could be interpreted as letting bygones be bygones, but only when it comes to the 63-68 period (in effect, 'forget about that, we both made mistakes'), but not after that ('all the effects of the 74 invasion/intervention should be undone completely and unconditionally'). I hope you understand the spirit of what I'm saying.

We will will "undo" whatever can be undone. This is for both the 63-68 period and the 74-2005 period. In 1963 TCs stop participating in the governing of Cyprus, this will be "undone", most of them have gone to enclaves, this will be "undone" as well since now they will be able to live anywhere they like etc.

Of course we can not "undo" the deaths, the suffering and the problems that all this situation caused to both sides, but this is the price we paid, and we should agree that we have paid enough.

On the quote above, a true strong federation is not a concession, is it? We agreed to that decades ago, so it's a given, a constant, not a concession...

Because we agreed to it long time ago it means it is not a concession? If we follow your logic we should never make concessions, because if we do, and the other side doesn't and a long time passes, our concession will not be considered a concession any more. I do not agree with your logic here. Otherwise the only conclusion is that we have wrongly made such concession in the past. Is that what you imply?

[Saint Jimmy]

Because we agreed to it long time ago it means it is not a concession? If we follow your logic we should never make concessions, because if we do, and the other side doesn't and a long time passes, our concession will not be considered a concession any more. I do not agree with your logic here. Otherwise the only conclusion is that we have wrongly made such concession in the past. Is that what you imply?

I don't think accepting the compromise of a federation was a mistake.
You are right on this point, though, but maybe it was my mistake, I raised the wrong issue.

I guess our difference in perspective is not as simple as that, so here goes:

Would you agree that TCs (perhaps not all) would prefer to have a recognized state, separate from the RoC, at least at that point in time (meaning, the time of the agreements on federation, 77-79)? That means that a federation was a compromise for them, too...

That, I believe, is the principle on which the solution should be based. A middle ground, a sort of win-win deal, albeit not the perfect win-win case... The point is that if we expect to get it all our way, we'll end up with nothing. We have to work on given constraints (some of which we imposed on ourselves), and that's why we shouldn't be looking for the perfect deal, but the best possible one.

[erolz]

So according to Erolz, the family members of the 6000 people that were killed during the invasion, and the ones that were killed before by TMT and other Turkish Cypriot terrorists now have the right to kill, rape and steal as a revenge and thats perfectly normal.

Will you please please stop putting words into my mouth. I have never said that one act is justified by the other. What you are saying is that my aunt (and all TC and Turks) are theives. You make no distinction between a theif that comes into your house with no history and no past connection with you and simply takes your possesions for financial gain and my Aunt who is an innocent victim of horrendous oppression and a political situation not of her own making. This constant refrain of yours that we are all 'theives' is insulting and simply not a reflection of the reality of the situation. It is also - along with your other statements - a racist view because it claims that all TC and all Turks are theives (even those living in pre 74 TC properties) as well as muderers and rapists. My Aunt is none of these things. The vast majoirty of TC are none of these things and the vast majority of Turks are none of these things.

Maybe Erolz, this is the kind of sick brain that the people that killed your uncle had. They killed your uncle to take revenge for something else that happened in the past, not by your uncle but by some other Turk(s).

There you go again equating Turks with TC. I do not know what kind of sick brain these people had. I do know they were GC. I also know that they were using violence and oppression to force the TC to accept exactly the same things you want us to accept now - a status of poliotical minority within out own country where we are under effective control of GC - the very ones who committed these murders.

If revenge is an excuse for a crime, then the murder of your uncle could as easily be excused as your aunt stealing the property. Is that what you want? The continuation of the circle of blood forever? I am not excusing the murderers of your uncle, but you are apparently excusing the stealing of our property.

I have never claimed that revenge is an excuse for a crime. In law however having been systematicaly oppressed for a period of time can be mitigation for crimes (like when a battered wife takes a knife to her abusing husband). I am not excusing the loss of your properties. I am explaing and countering your racist view that the problem is ongoing because TC are greedy theives. This is just not the case and your repeated insistant that it is is a denial of the attrocites that led upto and caused the loss of GC properties.

So you want all GC that lost property in 74 to get their properties back. What compensation do you propose for my aunt then for her loss - which is far more than the loss of a property and pre dates GC loss of porperty by 10 years. Who is talking of her compensation, of justice for her? No one is - instead you are calling her personaly a theif (and a rapist and murderer)!

The whole "racist" story here started when Insan claimed that "Hellens started it first".

You have called TC and Turks theives and rapists and murderes - simply becauase they are TC or Turks many times before this thread. It was just that in this thread I finally stoped accepting your blantantly racists views without challenge. YOU decided to air your racist views and show your hatred for an entire race. No one else. No one made you do this. And by your own logic that a TC may have 'lied' (with is a matter of opinion not fact) does not justify your making of racist comments!

This is obviously a lie, and I had to remind everybody how everything really started, because there was a time that Turks simply did not exist in our area.

There was a time when nobody existed in their area. So what? Again you can not hide your racism. In the past you have talked about how the ancient hellenic 'empire' was built by Greeks going to 'unihabited' areas and binging culture and civilisation to them. That is rubbish. The ancient hellenic empire was built on militray might - like all empires before and afterwards.

It is very interesting that you want to say lies like "Hellens started it and we were just responding" and when the facts of history are given to you, you start the accusations and the crying.

What are you saying here. Because Turks took Cyprus by force in 1495 - that justifed GC in 1960 ignoring the TC and gave them a right to force them to accept Greek rule and when they did not justified the orgainsed killing and murder of TC to make them comply with GC and Greek desires?

Again let's be totaly clear here. I have accused you of being a racist because you repeatedly make racist posting here. It has nothing to do with me not liking what you say about Cyprus. Many posters say things I do not like about cyprus but I do not call them racist because they have not made racist remarks.

You argue and lecture me about one evil can not be justifed by another - and then you claim that your evil racist remarks are justifed and caused by TC saying things that you consider lies! You aer not just a racist but a hypocriotical racists!

I believe I am very objective, and I have no intend to split people into good and bad.

What you believe and what are real are miles appart as far as I am concerned. You have no intention to split people into good and bad - yet continue to insist (in many posts) that the only thing Turks know how to do is kill, rape and steal and that all TC are theives! What a joke!

Both sides have made mistakes, and now we should not look who started it first, or whose turn is to take the revenge, but how we can stop the injustices for everybody once and for all.

But you do not want to stop the injustices. Only the ones that affect you. You continue with the injustice of denying that TC as a people have any rights to self determination in their own homeland and they must subject themselves to the will of a GC community that murdered and oppressed them in the past in order to achieve this very same 'ideal' that you still persue today. And then you have the gall to say that we almost exclusively carry the blame for there not being a settlement since 74!

However when some people come in here and they excuse the stealing of our properties and they claim that they should keep them, then what do you want me to call such people?

Calling people who now live in former GC homes thieves is one thing. This is NOT what you have done and are doing. What you have done is call all TC theives. You have said the only thing Turks (all of them - no qualifications) know how to dd is kill,steal and rape. These are racist views and they are not justifed or excused by anthing others have said. They are your personal sole responsibility.

Thieves is the only word that can describe them. All its needed from your side is to accept that you can not keep what does not belong to you, and cut the excuses. When you do that, then you will not be thieves and I will not call you that way.

Will you stop calling TC that live in TC properties pre 74 thieves? No you wwill not. Will you stop saying that the only think Turks know how to do is will rape and steal. No you will not. Will you stop calling theives TC living in former GC properties and who have lost properties in the south (almost always of equal or greater value) which are now being lived in by GC (or have been demolished or left to rot). No you will not. Will you stop insisting that the Cyprus problem continues today because TC are greedy and theives. No you will not. Will you accept a difference between a theif you comes into your house and steals your possesion for finaical gain and the situation of my aunt? No you will not. You will not because you are racist. You promote and post racist views. Not just once - but repeatedly.