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Is the South really the "govt of Cyprus" or G/C st

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Do you consider the South a Greek-Cypriot National State?

¡EVET!
12
71%
¡HAYIR!
5
29%
¿BiLMiYORUM?
0
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Total votes : 17

Postby erolz » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:11 am

MicAtCyp wrote:
Economic of course! If 90% of your trade is with EU staying out is a suicide.You cannot sell. When you cannot sell you cannot buy. When you cannot buy you starve!


You can buy and sell to the EU if you are outside it, just not on the same terms as inside it. Many non Eu countries do it

MicAtCyp wrote:
There are huge customs tarrifs in the EU that practically exclude everyone who is not an EU member.


Tarrifs on tourism and on selling 'retirment homes'?

MicAtCyp wrote:
To see the real impact look at the Japanese car industry.The European one is steadily rising, the Japanese is steadily declining. In the free areas most dealers of Japanese brand new cars are on their way to bankraptcy.No 1 on the list is Mazda.


Do we have much of a car manufacturing industry in Cyprus then? I hadn't noticed.
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Postby insan » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:17 am

Economic of course!



Whole world knows that it's not economic and cannot be economic. You too know this but cannot admit, MicAtCyp.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:58 am

To see the real impact look at the Japanese car industry.The European one is steadily rising, the Japanese is steadily declining. In the free areas most dealers of Japanese brand new cars are on their way to bankraptcy.No 1 on the list is Mazda.


Just to clarify some things, the Japanese have car plants in Europe. Nissan and Toyota for example have car plants in the UK. The cars manufactured there serve the EU market and as such are not liable to tarrifs.

Insan, I think that you are perhaps being disengeneous towards MicAtCyp. The economic factor was a major reason for Cyprus to join, but of course the main driver for EU membership was to force Turkey to begin negotiating a solution to the Cyprus problem. From that point of view, that is a benefit for BOTH communities. If Cyprus didn't gain entry then the status quo would have prevailed, the border would still be closed etc.

So perhaps you should give some credit for the fact that Cypriots politicians pushed for entry because without that the ball would not even have begun rolling towards a solution. So, if you are Cypriot first and foremost then perhaps you should stop looking at it as a way for us to get one over on you, because it is not. For a solution to come about it takes two to tango.
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Postby insan » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:09 am

So, if you are Cypriot first and foremost then perhaps you should stop looking at it as a way for us to get one over on you, because it is not



Unfortunately, every move T-Pap and his team have made and every step they have taken prove me that their dream is to get one over on other one. The problem is T-Pap, his team and the ones who give them support from the background. I have no problem with the rest.
Last edited by insan on Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby insan » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:25 am

disengeneous



Where did you find re mikkie this word? I couldn't find the meaning of that word but I assume you meant there was a hostile attittude towards MicAtCyp... No, I don't have such feeling against MicAtCyp but lately his temper is very harmful towards everyone other than you and piratis. Do you have any idea why?
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Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:47 am

Insan,

My spelling was incorrect.

disigenuous is what I meant to say.

Means

Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: “an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who... exemplified... the most disagreeable traits of his time” (David Cannadine).
Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.

So, what I was saying is that it is a bit naive for you to simply assume that it is not economic at all whatsoever. It is a mixture of economics and obvioulsy as a means to force Turkey to negotiate.

But I guess that could go to both of you on this one :wink:

As for MicAtCyp being angry, well I'm not surprised considering the mild attack of 'grey wolves' we have had recently on the forum with whome all the TC's jumped to agree with without challenge!
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Postby Saint Jimmy » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:58 am

insan wrote:Unfortunately, every move T-Pap and his team have made and every step they have taken prove me that their dream is to get one over on other one. The problem is T-Pap, his team and the ones who give them support from the background. I have no problem with the rest.


You guys lost me :D
Was this a discussion about why we got in the EU?
I, too, believe that the real reason we wanted to is not economic, but, insan, please keep in mind that it wasn't T-Pap or his backstage support who got us in Europe. Those who did were not interested in getting one over anyone, they were just trying to force Turkey out of that 'we solved it back in 74' stance. They did not intend to solve it at your expense; just to solve it.
Well, that's what I think, anyway :D Can't ever be sure, can we...?
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Postby insan » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:13 am

Insan,

My spelling was incorrect.

disigenuous is what I meant to say.

Means

Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: “an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who... exemplified... the most disagreeable traits of his time” (David Cannadine).
Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.



Thanks for the definition od the word. :)

So, what I was saying is that it is a bit naive for you to simply assume that it is not economic at all whatsoever. It is a mixture of economics and obvioulsy as a means to force Turkey to negotiate.




Sorry but I haven't read any comprehensive articles about how EU membership would strenghten the economy of Cyprus. If you have a few links concerning with the issue please post. In the past it is MicAtCyp who claimed that EU membership of Cyprus will negatively afect the economy of Cyprus. He said that the EU membership of Cyprus would particularly affect the banking sector. He further claimed that most of the Cyprus business sectors would not compete with the EU rivals. Moreover he said that many of the employers was preparing themselves to import cheap labourers from other new EU members. I wonder am I really disigenuous towards Mic or he is to me.

But I guess that could go to both of you on this one

As for MicAtCyp being angry, well I'm not surprised considering the mild attack of 'grey wolves' we have had recently on the forum with whome all the TC's jumped to agree with without challenge!



Grey wolves? Were they really? It was just one person with 3 different nicks and I'm sure there's no grey wolf as knowledgeable as that person. Though we were aware of that some of his/her posts were intentional. What we agreed with him/her is known by all of you. There's no hypocritical in any of that threads. If there was can you give me a few examples, please?
Last edited by insan on Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby insan » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:24 am

Those who did were not interested in getting one over anyone, they were just trying to force Turkey out of that 'we solved it back in 74' stance.



This has never been Turkey's official policy concerning Cyprus. Perhaps you may know, both parties seeking a solution within their own solution thesis. In the past when one side accepted the UN proposals the other side rejected. That's the fact about the Cyprus problem.



XI Deadlock and Negotiations (1975 - present day)

1975 TFSC declared. Intercommunal talks in Vienna; Vienna III agreement, partial implementation.

1976 Exchange of proposals, Clerides resignation.

1977 Framework Agreement between Makarios & Denktash setting parameters for a bicommunal federation. Death of Makarios; Kyprianou becomes president of Republic.

1979 Ten-point agreement between Kyprianou & Denktash; priority to be given GC resettlement of Varosha.

1980 September, military seizes power in Turkey, with US approval, for third time in 20 years; rewrite constitution to provide permanent decision-making role for military; stay formally in power until 1983.

1981 Guidelines for the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Cyprus. Committee on Missing Persons established with ICRC.

1983 Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus unilaterally declared. No country besides Turkey recognizes TRNC.

1984 Proximity talks on Draft Agreement, to be finished & signed at high-level meeting, Jan., '85.

1985 Kyprianou-Denktash meeting; draft initialed, not signed. In April, Kyprianou agreed to a slightly altered draft, rejected by Denktash.

1986 Denktash agreed to a new altered draft, rejected by Kyprianou. Exposure of Turkish military buildup triggered GC military buildup.

1987 May, EU protocol initialed.

1988 February, Vasiliou elected president. September, direct negotiations begun under UN auspices.

1989 Perez de Cuellar's summary of ideas for the basis of a comprehensive settlement. Vasiliou agreed to ideas as basis for negotiations; rejected by Denktash.. Vasiliou proposals.

1990 February, UN negotiations resumed. March, UN Sec.-Gen. definition of political equality. Talks abandoned because Denktash insisted on a "separate right to self-determination for these two peoples" in contradiction to the 1977 and 1979 agreements. May, TC elections won by Denktash. July, formal application made for EU membership.

1991 High-level meeting planned, Greece & Turkey to be included, but canceled in September due to lack of basic agreement on territory, return of refugees, and sovereignty.

1992 New UN Sec-Gen, Boutrous Ghali, says Cyprus a priority. Talks in NY begin midyear; Boutrous-Ghali "Set of Ideas" for a draft settlement accepted as basis for negotiation by Vasiliou but rejected by Denktash. Third round of talks in October suspended without agreement.

1993 February, Vasiliou loses narrowly to Clerides in runoff presidential election. March, confidence-building measures proposed, with negotiations for implementation to begin in May. Talks resumed; canceled in June when Denktash declined to respond to UN proposals.

1994 February, UN begins proximity talks to negotiate implementation of CBMs following confirmation of acceptance by both sides; disagreement over terms dooms effort.

1995 EU agreement to open accession talks with Cyprus. April, Denktash reelected in second round of voting. October, successful bicommunal events at Ledra Palace - open house on UN's 50th drew over 5,000, more than half were TCs, & bicommunal friendship concert, over 1000 attending.

1996 UN special representative met with leaders of both communities. August, bikers' demonstration on Green Line; two GCs killed.

1997 Clerides orders Russian S-300 missiles; Turkey makes threats against deployment. May, bicommunal concert draws 3,000; protest by a few GCs became violent. July, Clerides, Denktash met for 5 days of UN-sponsored talks in Troutbeck, NY; August meetings in Glion, Switzerland. Further talks canceled after dispute on UN proposals, and Denktash objections to application to join EU.

1998 EU accession negotiations opened. Denktash said that TCs would unite with Turkey if Cyprus joins EU. Formalized association accord signed in 1997; joint economic zone announced. GC election gives narrow victory for Clerides; December, Clerides agrees not to deploy Russian missiles; to be sent to Crete instead.

1999 Earthquakes in Turkey, Greece lead to warming of relations between countries. December, UN-sponsored indirect talks in NY end without progress, but will continue. Turkey given candidate status for EU; must change its relations with Cyprus to achieve full membership.

2000 Negotiations continued without result. Denktash re-elected in disputed process. July reunion of hundreds of former GC & TC villagers at Pergamos. Talks end in November with no progress.

2002-03 UN Secretary General Kfi Annan and Special Representative Alvaro DeSoto present a plan* for the island's partial reunification; both sides essentially reject the Plan.

2003, Spring The Green Line is opened by the Turkish Cypriot administration and the Greek side also allows unfettered access between north and south. Some 2 million people pass across the line during the remainder of 2003 without incident.

2004, April 24 The Annan Plan for reunification was rejected in the south, with 70% voting against; in the Turkish north, 65% voted in favor of the plan despite official opposition.

2004, May 1 The Republic of Cyprus enters the European Union, with the Turkish north declining to join.
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Postby Saint Jimmy » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:41 am

insan wrote:This has never been Turkey's official policy concerning Cyprus.


I was thinking along the lines of Ciller-Ecevit policy, but still, look at how many times the phrase 'rejected by Denktash' exists in your post... And, if I'm not mistaken, there's only one rejection there by GC leadership, that of Kyprianou (putting aside certain questionable or inaccurate statements on there, like 70% GCs rejecting the plan, or 65% TCs voting for it despite official opposition - does that refer to Denktash, by the way? I was under the impression that the official stance of the TC leadership, bar Rauf, was for the plan). But that's not the point: isn't the consensus that Denktash is/was Turkey's voice in Cyprus? Ergo, can we not safely assume that he was acting/deciding/rejecting on Turkey's commands? Granted, it may not have been Turkey's official policy...

By the way, was it Ecevit that said that 'we solved it in 74', or something along those lines, or did I get my facts mixed up again?
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