Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Anlarm, nobody said that Cyprus is made just by "pure" Greeks. If we exclude some tribes lost in some forests, there is no country that is "pure" in that sense. What has been Greek for over 3000 years is the culture, language and religion of the great majority of the population. Nobody excludes the other cultures of other Cypriots. We are just stating facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are wrong that Cypriots were "ordered" to speak Greek during the Byzantine times. Is this part of the Turkish "education"?
Greeks in Cyprus have been talking their own dialect of Greek for thousands of years. Or do you really think that we were changing our language whenever a new ruler was occupying Cyprus? I am sorry, but thats ridiculous. Maybe what you confuse is that something other than Greek was the "official" language because our rulers were speaking different languages.

[-mikkie2-]

Ok lets say the TC community living in free areas has said that OK I am going to choose my TC MPs and vice president, as in 1960 constitution. Would the RoC goverment right now give them that right?

I mean it is their constitutional rights as you know.

Now if you are going to tell me but how can 2000 TCs living in south can choose vice president?
Then I will ask what is the cutoff point?
10K, 20K, 50k, 100k.
I mean RoC should guide us on how to elect our own MPs and vice president under the constitution of RoC right now. Don't you think so?

There is not enough political mass with the TC's that live in the free areas to be able to recreate the conditions of the RoC as in 1960. There has to be a conscious decision by the TC political leadership to enter back into the RoC in order for the TC community to exercise their rights under the constitution.

The TC's living in the south have made a conscious decision to not go to the north and as such they make a conscious decision to not be represented by the TC community. And my point is these people may wish to have their voice heard as individuals and may want to take part in the political process in the south and all we can do at this moment in time is to allow them to participate with the current set up until a solution to the political problem is found.

So what I am talking about is very limited in scope and it is not intended to extend to cover the whole issue of the constitution and its implementation.

[anlarm]

It seems to me that we are all imprisoned within certain political words and terms. Everybody on this island (including Tasos and Denktash) want a "solution"; but each one's definition of solution is different. Everybody talks about "human rights" and "human rights violations"; but human rights for some GCs could be a violations of human rights for TC, and vice versa. What is "free areas" for GCs is lost ancestral homes for some TCs. What is "free and safe home" for TCs is "occupied area" for GCs. Unless we free ourselves of the bondage of words and concepts, which are mostly imposed on our minds by some leaders or outsiders, we may not progress much towards a real peaceful solution.
After the opening of the gates, most people have "realized" that "ordinary people" can get along quite well. And a lot of people put the blame on politicians (even the media). GC keep saying their problem is with Turkey and the settlers. They were not here before 74 but we still had problems. For many TCs there is still a "mistrust" about living with the GCs (together or side by side). GC official history doesnt say much about pre 74 era. I believe a lot of TCs are awaiting an "official" or "communal" apology for the pre 74 events. Something like acknowledging that GCs had done something wrong and that they will not attempt anything similar in the future. TCs however do not owe such an apology to the GCs. That should come from mainland Turkey.
Unless all parties acknowledge their mistakes and offer a sincere apology and friendly hand, peace will be hard to come.

[PEACE]

We are not racists, and we have no problem to live along with others. Unfortunately it seems that you choose ethnic cleansing, and forcefully occupy 37% of Cyprus while you are just 18%.
If you didn't make this ethnic cleansing, then the whole Cyprus would be free, and in free RoC a lot of people would speak/write Turkish, a lot of Turkish newspapers would exist etc.

Interesting but if Turkey hadn't made intervention we won't be here most probably.Remember that coup and EOKA ! They were making massacres!
Muratağa,Sandallar,Atlılar... If there wouldn't be intervention most probably this massacres could be seen over whole Cyprus.

No Turkish Cypriots = Free RoC? Huh? You are so funny Piratis!

On the other hand i don't support after intervention! Intervention is quite timely but the way that Turkey follewed after is not lawfull.

Therefore the free RoC is inhabited now mostly by Greek Cypriots because the Turkish Cypriots choose to support the occupation and live in the occupied areas.

There is population exchangement agreement.Also we are not obligated to live under changed structure of RoC.You know the structure is not the same with 1960!

The greediness of some people is without any limits. They want to illegally occupy just for themselves the 37% of the island (while the are just 18%), and at the same time share the remaining of the island.

This situation is temporary and with a solution all will end.

However, the TC's in the free areas can simply state that they wish to be part of the GC community (just liuke the Maronites and Latins) and thus they can vote in the same way as everyone else.

We are not like Armenians or Maronites you know! Also you know our rights in 1960 agreements...


Anyways... I haven't got enogh time to look all to posts...But i can see that Piratis is now more extremist than even before!



My opinion:
Yes,now RoC is not bi-communal as it should be in normal and RoC's changed structure only represents Greek Cypriots now !Till we return there or till a solution is found.This situation is temporary and till a solution is found lawfull goverment is "changed RoC".This is a truth.But don't think that after we return everthing will be like today!

[turkcyp]

There is not enough political mass with the TC's that live in the free areas to be able to recreate the conditions of the RoC as in 1960. There has to be a conscious decision by the TC political leadership to enter back into the RoC in order for the TC community to exercise their rights under the constitution.

The TC's living in the south have made a conscious decision to not go to the north and as such they make a conscious decision to not be represented by the TC community. And my point is these people may wish to have their voice heard as individuals and may want to take part in the political process in the south and all we can do at this moment in time is to allow them to participate with the current set up until a solution to the political problem is found.

So what I am talking about is very limited in scope and it is not intended to extend to cover the whole issue of the constitution and its implementation.

Mikkie,

You are dancing around my question and are not giving me a staright answer. Let me make my question more clearer so that you will have no excuse to dance around it anymore.

Now that the borders are opened, and people can cross over freely, set's say that TC start imigrating back to south and lets say in 5 years time they are increased in numbers. My question is would RoC give these people living in south their 1960 constitutional rights of choosing theior TC MPs, and vice president in a ballot done only among TCs like the constitution has suggested?

If the answer is yes to the above question, then what is your critical number of TCs living in south? 10k, 20k, 50k, 100k? What is it? I mean how many TCs are required in the south so that they can start exercising their constitutional rights?

Very simple really, let's say now that there are 10k TCs moved to south, like east Germans moving to west, is this enough number to let them choose vice president with all his/her veto power. Is this enough number to choose 30% of MPs?

NO?

How about 20k then? How about 50k, 100k? I mean what is the critical number here.

IF you still dance around this hypothetical question without answering your opinion then I will start believeing that no number is enough for you guys, which makes me believe that you are not sincere aboput giving our rights back. Very simple really!

And let me make myself even more clearer. You have said something about political leaders of TC, so I want to clarify my question. All these TCs that move back to south, will create their own political leaders (apart from political leaders in the north, that choose not to go back to 1960 constitutional order). Societies create leaders, not the other way around. They will form their own parties (not related to parties in the north)

Have a good day,

[Saint Jimmy]

IF you still dance around this hypothetical question without answering your opinion then I will start believeing that no number is enough for you guys, which makes me believe that you are not sincere aboput giving our rights back. Very simple really!

Man, I'm starting to sound like a friggin' broken record...
Even if mikkie's answer is no (I don't know), that DOES NOT MEAN that we are not sincere or that we want to strip you of your rights. Period. A few GCs do. They are not going to get their way.

[turkcyp]

Anlarm, nobody said that Cyprus is made just by "pure" Greeks. If we exclude some tribes lost in some forests, there is no country that is "pure" in that sense. What has been Greek for over 3000 years is the culture, language and religion of the great majority of the population. Nobody excludes the other cultures of other Cypriots. We are just stating facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

You are wrong that Cypriots were "ordered" to speak Greek during the Byzantine times. Is this part of the Turkish "education"?
Greeks in Cyprus have been talking their own dialect of Greek for thousands of years. Or do you really think that we were changing our language whenever a new ruler was occupying Cyprus? I am sorry, but thats ridiculous. Maybe what you confuse is that something other than Greek was the "official" language because our rulers were speaking different languages.

Piratis,

For somebody that does not like dwelling into history, you are very interested in talking about Greekness od Cyprus for the last 3000 years.

You remember in another topic we were discussing that there is a prior to everything. Well if you want to claim that Cyprus was always been Greek, then this means you are arquing either of the two things.
a) That Greek civilization started in Cyprus or
b) When the Greek civilization reached to Cyprus, there was no other people living there.

Are you claiming any of these Piratis. Cause if you are not then you should be accepting that Greeks were as imperialistic (meaning keen on acquiring land and incresing there influence on other people) as teh rest of the world like Romans, Ottomans, English, etc. etc. And there is nothing wrong with being imperialistic.

Until the last two century being imperialistic has been considered to be not a bad thing, but just the nature of every state. So it was an accepted norm. Only in the last 2 centuries humans have evolved into considering being imperialistic a moral bad thing.

So yes Greeks have been on the island much longer than Turks may be, but this does not make the island always and pure Greek. If it did, then the whole question of "which land belongs to which nation" would be a matter of time. The passage of time makes everything more legit. And claiming that Cyprus right now is a Greek island basically means that 432 years is not enough to give Cyprus some Turkish identity.

Is this what you are claiming Piratis,

Thank you and have a good day,

[boulio]

its funny T-pap even considers the 1960 costituion a blessing:

http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text?c=110&id=17371488

sorry its in greek:

but it states that the 1960 agreement looking back in hindsight was a "BLESSING"according to Papadopoulos,he goes on to state that the greek cypriots were not ready for the 1959 agreement,they were expecting enosis and what they received was something better a cypriot state.he stated that they were presented with a constituion that they didn'tunderstand and didn'y want,they were given a little time to examine the costituton and and understand its benefits and negatives.

papadopoulos states that he voted against the 1960 costituion however if you asked him to vote today he would vote yes after finding a medium between his feelings and logic and the events that occured after.

maybe your right turkcyp,will the 1960 agreements actually come back?

[turkcyp]

Man, I'm starting to sound like a friggin' broken record...
Even if mikkie's answer is no (I don't know), that DOES NOT MEAN that we are not sincere or that we want to strip you of your rights. Period. A few GCs do. They are not going to get their way.

Dear Jimmy,

I know that there are some elements in every society that are more at the extremes and they don't like compromises and I am certainly aware of the fact that there is a decent probability that the majority of GCs are not like them.

But the reason we are here in this forum is to learn from each other. Learn how we can live along together. And any person who has that kind of attitude should be a moderate person. A very nationalistic TC or GC would not be in this forum for too long. He/she would drop by once in a while to provoke people but leave later on.

All I am trying to understand is the feeling of the moderate GCs. (As I have said I belive huge majority of this forum either GC or TC are moderate) If the moderates of the GC society can not give a straight answer to a simple question, then I start questioning the rest of the society as well. That is my logic. May be it is flawed but that is what my logic. May be you can show any flaw in this logic, and I am more than willing to listen.

its funny T-pap even considers the 1960 costituion a blessing:

http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text?c=110&id=17371488

sorry its in greek:

but it states that the 1960 agreement looking back in hindsight was a "BLESSING"according to Papadopoulos,he goes on to state that the greek cypriots were not ready for the 1959 agreement,they were expecting enosis and what they received was something better a cypriot state.he stated that they were presented with a constituion that they didn'tunderstand and didn'y want,they were given a little time to examine the costituton and and understand its benefits and negatives.

papadopoulos states that he voted against the 1960 costituion however if you asked him to vote today he would vote yes after finding a medium between his feelings and logic and the events that occured after.

maybe your right turkcyp,will the 1960 agreements actually come back?

Dear boulio,

May be Papadopoulos thinks like I do. That the Annan Plan was worst than 1960 constitution. You never know? (I sincerely doubt it but may be, you never know)

About 1960 agreements turning back!

I wish. But I sincerely doubt that too. The reason being there have been so many things passed since then, which makes this only a theoretical possibility but a very unfeasible reality.

I mean so many laws have been passed by RoC in the mean time, that need to be reviewed and may be abolished that are against 1960 constitution, I doubt anybody in the south side would be willing to do 30 years of legislation changes undone.

I mean a very simple example. Cyprus being a part of EU needs vice presidential approval. Although most TCs (unlike me) thinks that EU membership is a good thing, can GCs really take that risk of letting the EU membership approved in the TC community as well. I do not think so.

Ah. Ah. Time passage solidifies everything. I wish GCs can see as clear as TCs and stop playing for time for the solution of Cyprus problem. That is why I said it so many times. Time passage definitely helps TCs in preserving the system they have created in the north.

SO you may ask, why many TCs (like me) want solution instead of just waiting. That is because many TCs do not believe it worth to wait that long, may be another life time, to get what they want.

A simple analogy is this. Would you take 1 million dollars in 1 year or wait 10 years and get 5 million dollars. I guess many TCs think that the interest rate they are earning in waiting does not justify that much waiting, so they want to cash in.

What I do not understand is that in passage of time, GCs are continuously loosing because everything is getting more solidified. But they still prefer to wait as Piratis says till the "Balance of Power" changes.

A simple example is this. Look at the study Alex had performed in GC society about the Annan Plan, and realize that this partitioning of the island is a problem in peoples eyes the older they get. Look at the demographic preferences changes in the study. There is two scientific explanation for this.
a)Either peoples political preferences about the Cyprus solution is changing in time as they get old. Meaning when they young they could care less if the island is united, but they value unification as they get old
b) or every new generation cares less about the unification then the previous generation, because they simply move on easier, or they have never seen north never have nostalgias, etc. etc.

I believe in answer b. The next generation of GCs could care less about unification of island then the current generation.

Have a great day everybody,

[-mikkie2-]

Turkcyp,

I am not dancing around your question. I have kept my discussion strictly around the TC's that live in the free areas and for some who wish to be able to vote in the south, not for what may happen in the future. I am talking about now. That is all. I will refuse to 'extend' the discussion into the wider area because that was not my intention.

You say that you are not like the Maronites or Latins! What makes the 2000 or so TC's living in the south any different to them or any other human being? The 2000 TC's in the south choose to live in the south. Just because your community does not want to be represented in the RoC does not mean that those TC's that may want to participate in some form in the RoC, because they live under it, should be denied a vote.