Should Turkish Cypriots recognize Armenian genocide?
by KELEBEK » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:39 am
alasya: even though you insulted along with insan in a previous post, i felt the need to vote yes.
why did you suggest that I run a "cypriot society for sado-mascochism"?
Let the record show
Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim.Ozuldilerim
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KELEBEK - Member
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by Alasya » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:01 pm
You shouldn`t feel afraid to stand up to Turkey. They hate T/Cs, although not as much as they hate G/C. 
I remember how at Antalya airport, I was told by a Turkiyeli "biz burada kibrisli turkleri sevmiyoruz".
Anyway as for the genocide / soykirim issue, Between 600,000 to 1,5 Million Armenian (figures varie according to which sources you believe) men, women and children perished because of the army of Talat Pasha in 1915. The forced deportations and long marches leading to starvation across Anatolia were definetely designed to kill. Even as a T/C I can see this, I can accept this crime against humanity.
Even though I am not Armenian, I can condemn this event because it was a great wrong. I also condemn Turkey for denying it, and refusing to even discuss it. Genocide is genocide who ever commits it. I dont see why T/Cs should make excuses for Turkey, are we forgetting our own suffering at the hands of the G/Cs?
kendine iyi bak. Quebec`den selamlar!
I remember how at Antalya airport, I was told by a Turkiyeli "biz burada kibrisli turkleri sevmiyoruz".
Anyway as for the genocide / soykirim issue, Between 600,000 to 1,5 Million Armenian (figures varie according to which sources you believe) men, women and children perished because of the army of Talat Pasha in 1915. The forced deportations and long marches leading to starvation across Anatolia were definetely designed to kill. Even as a T/C I can see this, I can accept this crime against humanity.
Even though I am not Armenian, I can condemn this event because it was a great wrong. I also condemn Turkey for denying it, and refusing to even discuss it. Genocide is genocide who ever commits it. I dont see why T/Cs should make excuses for Turkey, are we forgetting our own suffering at the hands of the G/Cs?
kendine iyi bak. Quebec`den selamlar!
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Alasya - Member
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by turkcyp » Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:53 am
Alasya wrote:You shouldn`t feel afraid to stand up to Turkey. They hate T/Cs, although not as much as they hate G/C.
I remember how at Antalya airport, I was told by a Turkiyeli "biz burada kibrisli turkleri sevmiyoruz".
Anyway as for the genocide / soykirim issue, Between 600,000 to 1,5 Million Armenian (figures varie according to which sources you believe) men, women and children perished because of the army of Talat Pasha in 1915. The forced deportations and long marches leading to starvation across Anatolia were definetely designed to kill. Even as a T/C I can see this, I can accept this crime against humanity.
Even though I am not Armenian, I can condemn this event because it was a great wrong. I also condemn Turkey for denying it, and refusing to even discuss it. Genocide is genocide who ever commits it. I dont see why T/Cs should make excuses for Turkey, are we forgetting our own suffering at the hands of the G/Cs?
kendine iyi bak. Quebec`den selamlar!
Was this a response to what I have posted.
If it was, are you trying to imply that I have written in my post "I don't know" for the reason you have stated (your first paragraph).
Plus I have read enough to be aware of what you have written down, and I have also read the counter arguments for it. And quite frankly I do not know which one makes a more believable story.
There are a lot of holes in the 'Armenian Genocide Theory' which needs to be filled so I can believe into it. Do not get me wrong. I never like to take officially history written by establishment as a fact. In fact I would actually question everything any goverment in the world tries to feed me. That is why I am saying 'I do not know' and there should be more independent research about this issue.
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by brother » Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:22 pm
In an interview with Zaman, Armenian Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanyan has recognized the Kars Agreement, stipulated by Ankara.
The Armenian Minister said that Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's remarks about the Kars Agreement determining the borders between the two countries were surprising for them. Saying that no Armenian leaders had made any statements denying Yerevan's recognition of the Kars Agreement so far, Oskanyan added: "Armenia is a country which is a continuation of the Soviet Union. All agreements signed between the Soviet Union and third countries are valid."
A high level Turkish diplomat interpreted Oskanyan's remarks as "opportunism". The diplomat said: "There are some expressions in the Armenian Constitution and the Declaration of Independence which use the expression "Western Armenia" for Turkey's eastern regions and Agri Mountain is also registered in the state emblem. Secondly, they have made no concrete steps to withdraw from the Azerbaijani territories that they occupied and the Armenian diaspora continues to accuse Turkey of genocide. If we are talking about compromise, concrete steps should be taken on those three areas." Prime Minister Erdogan raised the subject of the Kars Agreement after his Moscow trip on January 12, saying that Yerevan should take the first step on the issue of Turkey's opening the Armenian border.
Oskanyan answered questions from Zaman on various issues ranging from the Kars Agreement to so-called genocide claims.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan explaining that Armenia does not recognize the Kars Treaty, said "If they say 'I don't recognize it,' then, in that case, don't get upset, we won't recognize it, either." Those are the expressions he used. Why don't you recognize the Treaty of Kars?
The PM's statement about the Kars Treaty really surprised me. Government of Armenia has made no statements saying we don't recognize it. We are the successor states of the Soviet Union. All of the agreements, which the Soviet Union signed, continue to be in force unless new agreements have been signed to replace them, or unless statements have been made about not recognizing those agreements.
What is your view on Turkish condition for Armenia to end occupation in Azerbaijani land?
Turkey can't try to simplify the Nagorno Karabakh issue so much that it reduces it to a territorial problem, independent of all other issues. This is a comprehensive issue, and includes many elements such as territories, refugees, security, and stability. Until the Nagorno Karabakh issue arose between Azerbaijan and Armenians, there was no Azerbaijani territory under Armenian control. Those territories came under Armenian control after the Nagorno Karabakh issue came to the fore. The Turkish side is confusing cause and consequence. By separating cause from consequence, you can't solve this problem. At the heart of the problem, is that Azerbaijan doesn't deal with the fundamental core issue. That is why Turkey can't turn the territories issue into a precondition. It's not that we're not for finding a solution. But we want the issue to be looked at in its totality.
What do you say about Turkey's mediation? By the same token, should Russia have become a mediator?
Turkey cannot be a mediator in the Nagorno Karabakh resolution process, because it is biased. Russia, on the other hand, has no preconditions for a resolution. And it is not biased. But Turkey comes forward, at every opportunity, from its one-sided position. If Turkey reviews its policy toward Armenia, establishes full diplomatic relations, and develops good relations equal to those it has with Azerbaijan, then, Turkey's mediation would be very effective. Turkey always proposes mediation. Although we have regular bilateral meetings, without any problems, however, the matter of mediation is different.
Russia and Turkey's joint act on the issue does not help for solution
How does a joint cooperation between Ankara and Russia affect the solution?
We have no problems with the fact that we are on the agenda of both countries. However, I don't believe that the combined efforts of the two countries would aid in the resolution process.
One fifth of Azerbaijani land is under Armenian occupation. When will you end this?
Nagorno Karabakh has always been Armenian territory. As for the other regions, that is a matter between Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan. In the Soviet Union, Nagorno Karabakh was included within Azerbaijan. When war erupted between Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan, it is natural that Armenia helped Nagorno Karabakh. The fundamental reason that there are negotiations being conducted between Armenia and Azerbaijan is that Azerbaijan refuses to negotiate with Nagorno Karabakh.
Years ago, you put Genocide assertions on the agenda. In that regard, you are also trying to receive the assistance of the West, led by the US. What is your intent? Are you trying to grab territory from Turkey, or to receive compensation?
Take a look at the map please. Turkey's geography, economy, and population are obvious. Armenia on the other hand is a small and poor country. On the Armenian foreign policy agenda, there is no reference to territories or compensation. Our foreign policy goal is international recognition of the Armenian Genocide, together with recognition by Turkey. What happened in 1915 is quite obviously Genocide. Turks have differing opinions about that. Let's let people openly discuss this issue. We are democratic societies. There is no need to become concerned that Armenia is trying to place this issue on other countries' agendas. Turks, too, can lobby in different countries, work with them. However, Armenia absolutely does not view this as a precondition for the improvement of relations with Turkey. We have never said that Turkey first acknowledges the Genocide. We could have resolved the matter through dialogue, had there been diplomatic relations between the two countries. How are we to resolve this issue? Since we're not able to resolve it at the governmental level, then there are efforts to seek solutions at other levels, through other channels.
According to you, will Turkey's entry into the EU facilitate this claim?
Today, there are two important problems between Armenia and Turkey: opening the border, and Genocide. For the improvement of relations, Genocide recognition is not a precondition but open borders automatically are. No one can insist that there can be normal relations between two countries if the border between them is closed. However, even without Genocide recognition, it is possible to normalize relations. The Genocide is a moral, broader issue. The EU, too, would like for Turkey to recognize the Genocide at some stage in the process. We hope that these matters will be included in the agenda for negotiations between Turkey and the EU to begin later this year. But on the border issue, we can't wait 10-15 years or longer, for Turkey to be accepted into the EU, for there to be some positive movement. We hope that very soon, Turkey will open the border.
Armenians living in Turkey accuse the Armenians of the Diaspora for insisting on Genocide recognition. Where does Armenia take place in this discussion?
It is natural that the Armenians of the Diaspora would more frequently raise the issue. They are the descendants of the Genocide survivors. Their grandfathers were pushed to the Syrian deserts, to the Arab countries, and from there, they moved on to Europe and the US. They grew up listening to the elders telling stories of the Genocide. But, this isn't just their
issue; it's also Armenia's issue. There is no difference between them.
There is nothing left for historians to discuss about
If the issue is first discussed by historians and specialists, and they find some common ground, wouldn't that ease the process?
There is nothing new to say on this. There are countless studies on the subject and the events of 1915 have very clearly emerged. If the historians were to gather again, no one's point of view would change. The specialists have been working. They're done with their work. Now, it is essential that the Turkish government enter into this discussion. Why are we afraid of these discussions? Today, around the world, there are many countries with similar problems. Japan and South Korea, South Korea and China, Japan and the US, the US and Mexico, and others. These countries continue to have relations with each other, even as they continue to discuss these events. And they have fine relations.
The Armenian Minister said that Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's remarks about the Kars Agreement determining the borders between the two countries were surprising for them. Saying that no Armenian leaders had made any statements denying Yerevan's recognition of the Kars Agreement so far, Oskanyan added: "Armenia is a country which is a continuation of the Soviet Union. All agreements signed between the Soviet Union and third countries are valid."
A high level Turkish diplomat interpreted Oskanyan's remarks as "opportunism". The diplomat said: "There are some expressions in the Armenian Constitution and the Declaration of Independence which use the expression "Western Armenia" for Turkey's eastern regions and Agri Mountain is also registered in the state emblem. Secondly, they have made no concrete steps to withdraw from the Azerbaijani territories that they occupied and the Armenian diaspora continues to accuse Turkey of genocide. If we are talking about compromise, concrete steps should be taken on those three areas." Prime Minister Erdogan raised the subject of the Kars Agreement after his Moscow trip on January 12, saying that Yerevan should take the first step on the issue of Turkey's opening the Armenian border.
Oskanyan answered questions from Zaman on various issues ranging from the Kars Agreement to so-called genocide claims.
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan explaining that Armenia does not recognize the Kars Treaty, said "If they say 'I don't recognize it,' then, in that case, don't get upset, we won't recognize it, either." Those are the expressions he used. Why don't you recognize the Treaty of Kars?
The PM's statement about the Kars Treaty really surprised me. Government of Armenia has made no statements saying we don't recognize it. We are the successor states of the Soviet Union. All of the agreements, which the Soviet Union signed, continue to be in force unless new agreements have been signed to replace them, or unless statements have been made about not recognizing those agreements.
What is your view on Turkish condition for Armenia to end occupation in Azerbaijani land?
Turkey can't try to simplify the Nagorno Karabakh issue so much that it reduces it to a territorial problem, independent of all other issues. This is a comprehensive issue, and includes many elements such as territories, refugees, security, and stability. Until the Nagorno Karabakh issue arose between Azerbaijan and Armenians, there was no Azerbaijani territory under Armenian control. Those territories came under Armenian control after the Nagorno Karabakh issue came to the fore. The Turkish side is confusing cause and consequence. By separating cause from consequence, you can't solve this problem. At the heart of the problem, is that Azerbaijan doesn't deal with the fundamental core issue. That is why Turkey can't turn the territories issue into a precondition. It's not that we're not for finding a solution. But we want the issue to be looked at in its totality.
What do you say about Turkey's mediation? By the same token, should Russia have become a mediator?
Turkey cannot be a mediator in the Nagorno Karabakh resolution process, because it is biased. Russia, on the other hand, has no preconditions for a resolution. And it is not biased. But Turkey comes forward, at every opportunity, from its one-sided position. If Turkey reviews its policy toward Armenia, establishes full diplomatic relations, and develops good relations equal to those it has with Azerbaijan, then, Turkey's mediation would be very effective. Turkey always proposes mediation. Although we have regular bilateral meetings, without any problems, however, the matter of mediation is different.
Russia and Turkey's joint act on the issue does not help for solution
How does a joint cooperation between Ankara and Russia affect the solution?
We have no problems with the fact that we are on the agenda of both countries. However, I don't believe that the combined efforts of the two countries would aid in the resolution process.
One fifth of Azerbaijani land is under Armenian occupation. When will you end this?
Nagorno Karabakh has always been Armenian territory. As for the other regions, that is a matter between Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan. In the Soviet Union, Nagorno Karabakh was included within Azerbaijan. When war erupted between Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan, it is natural that Armenia helped Nagorno Karabakh. The fundamental reason that there are negotiations being conducted between Armenia and Azerbaijan is that Azerbaijan refuses to negotiate with Nagorno Karabakh.
Years ago, you put Genocide assertions on the agenda. In that regard, you are also trying to receive the assistance of the West, led by the US. What is your intent? Are you trying to grab territory from Turkey, or to receive compensation?
Take a look at the map please. Turkey's geography, economy, and population are obvious. Armenia on the other hand is a small and poor country. On the Armenian foreign policy agenda, there is no reference to territories or compensation. Our foreign policy goal is international recognition of the Armenian Genocide, together with recognition by Turkey. What happened in 1915 is quite obviously Genocide. Turks have differing opinions about that. Let's let people openly discuss this issue. We are democratic societies. There is no need to become concerned that Armenia is trying to place this issue on other countries' agendas. Turks, too, can lobby in different countries, work with them. However, Armenia absolutely does not view this as a precondition for the improvement of relations with Turkey. We have never said that Turkey first acknowledges the Genocide. We could have resolved the matter through dialogue, had there been diplomatic relations between the two countries. How are we to resolve this issue? Since we're not able to resolve it at the governmental level, then there are efforts to seek solutions at other levels, through other channels.
According to you, will Turkey's entry into the EU facilitate this claim?
Today, there are two important problems between Armenia and Turkey: opening the border, and Genocide. For the improvement of relations, Genocide recognition is not a precondition but open borders automatically are. No one can insist that there can be normal relations between two countries if the border between them is closed. However, even without Genocide recognition, it is possible to normalize relations. The Genocide is a moral, broader issue. The EU, too, would like for Turkey to recognize the Genocide at some stage in the process. We hope that these matters will be included in the agenda for negotiations between Turkey and the EU to begin later this year. But on the border issue, we can't wait 10-15 years or longer, for Turkey to be accepted into the EU, for there to be some positive movement. We hope that very soon, Turkey will open the border.
Armenians living in Turkey accuse the Armenians of the Diaspora for insisting on Genocide recognition. Where does Armenia take place in this discussion?
It is natural that the Armenians of the Diaspora would more frequently raise the issue. They are the descendants of the Genocide survivors. Their grandfathers were pushed to the Syrian deserts, to the Arab countries, and from there, they moved on to Europe and the US. They grew up listening to the elders telling stories of the Genocide. But, this isn't just their
issue; it's also Armenia's issue. There is no difference between them.
There is nothing left for historians to discuss about
If the issue is first discussed by historians and specialists, and they find some common ground, wouldn't that ease the process?
There is nothing new to say on this. There are countless studies on the subject and the events of 1915 have very clearly emerged. If the historians were to gather again, no one's point of view would change. The specialists have been working. They're done with their work. Now, it is essential that the Turkish government enter into this discussion. Why are we afraid of these discussions? Today, around the world, there are many countries with similar problems. Japan and South Korea, South Korea and China, Japan and the US, the US and Mexico, and others. These countries continue to have relations with each other, even as they continue to discuss these events. And they have fine relations.
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brother - Main Contributor
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by brother » Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:19 pm
EU WARNS ARMENIA ABOUT UPPER KARABAGH
The European Council Parliamentary Assembly warned Armenia about its occupation of the Azerbaijani soil. A report and a bill regarding the Upper Karabagh issue, prepared by British parliamentarian David Atkinson, were approved yesterday. The report stated that a member country’s occupation of another member’s soil was a serious violation of commitments made to the European Council and called on Armenia to withdraw from the Upper Karabagh. /Turkiye/
The European Council Parliamentary Assembly warned Armenia about its occupation of the Azerbaijani soil. A report and a bill regarding the Upper Karabagh issue, prepared by British parliamentarian David Atkinson, were approved yesterday. The report stated that a member country’s occupation of another member’s soil was a serious violation of commitments made to the European Council and called on Armenia to withdraw from the Upper Karabagh. /Turkiye/
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brother - Main Contributor
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by brother » Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:48 pm
Azerbaijan cheered by PACE resolution on Nagorno-Karabakh
AFP: 1/26/2005
BAKU, Jan 26, (AFP) - A strongly-worded resolution on Nagorno-Karabakh will help lead to a settlement of the decade-old territorial dispute between Azerbaijan and Armenia, the Azeri foreign ministry said Wednesday.
"The activation of PACE (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) brings us closer to the resolution of the conflict," Tahir Taghizadeh, a spokesman for the ministry said.
In some of the strongest language the council has used to describe the 1990s Nagorno-Karabakh war, PACE said in a resolution passed Tuesday that the conflict led to "large-scale ethnic expulsion and the creation of mono-ethnic areas which resemble the terrible concept of ethnic cleansing."
An ethnic Armenian enclave that had a 25 percent Azeri population before the war, Nagorno-Karabakh was the object of a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan until 1994 when the active phase of the conflict ended with Armenia in control of the territory inside Azerbaijan.
"Azerbaijan has always considered the actions of Armenia to be a typical example of ethnic cleansing ... Although the resolution does not reflect this in a categorical way, it is still positive," the Azeri foreign ministry spokesman said.
The two sides have yet to sign a peace treaty and formally remain in a state of war.
The PACE resolution urged the parties concerned to comply with UN Security Council resolutions by refraining from any armed hostilities and "by withdrawing military forces from any occupied territories".
Azerbaijan's foreign ministry said it viewed the passage of the PACE non-binding resolution as a sign of the international community's keen interest in a resolution of the Karabakh conflict.
AFP: 1/26/2005
BAKU, Jan 26, (AFP) - A strongly-worded resolution on Nagorno-Karabakh will help lead to a settlement of the decade-old territorial dispute between Azerbaijan and Armenia, the Azeri foreign ministry said Wednesday.
"The activation of PACE (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) brings us closer to the resolution of the conflict," Tahir Taghizadeh, a spokesman for the ministry said.
In some of the strongest language the council has used to describe the 1990s Nagorno-Karabakh war, PACE said in a resolution passed Tuesday that the conflict led to "large-scale ethnic expulsion and the creation of mono-ethnic areas which resemble the terrible concept of ethnic cleansing."
An ethnic Armenian enclave that had a 25 percent Azeri population before the war, Nagorno-Karabakh was the object of a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan until 1994 when the active phase of the conflict ended with Armenia in control of the territory inside Azerbaijan.
"Azerbaijan has always considered the actions of Armenia to be a typical example of ethnic cleansing ... Although the resolution does not reflect this in a categorical way, it is still positive," the Azeri foreign ministry spokesman said.
The two sides have yet to sign a peace treaty and formally remain in a state of war.
The PACE resolution urged the parties concerned to comply with UN Security Council resolutions by refraining from any armed hostilities and "by withdrawing military forces from any occupied territories".
Azerbaijan's foreign ministry said it viewed the passage of the PACE non-binding resolution as a sign of the international community's keen interest in a resolution of the Karabakh conflict.
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brother - Main Contributor
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