Cyprus-Forum.com

[Amadeo]

Hi, I'm wondering on buying a camcorder ( from US ), can you supply me with some info's about camcorders, general thinks, like if you have one you could tell me what's your opinion, what are the things that you don't like about it. Canon, Panasonic, Sony, Hitachi, JVC, Samsung. MiniDV OR DVD.
I prefer MiniDV.

[G.Man]

I have a superb minidv camcorder for sale...

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/so ... review.htm

Advantages include wireless lan, bluetooth, 512mb Memory Stick Pro, High Capacity Battery Pack, Original battery pack, case, remote, 1 brand new tape.

Was purchased for aerial photography project that never happened so as new.

cyp£350

[Amadeo]

I have a superb minidv camcorder for sale...

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/so ... review.htm

Advantages include wireless lan, bluetooth, 512mb Memory Stick Pro, High Capacity Battery Pack, Original battery pack, case, remote, 1 brand new tape.

Was purchased for aerial photography project that never happened so as new.

cyp£350

hi, thanks but i have to think about it:
is at least a 3 year old model, is a Sony ( no Canon nor Panasonic )
the general lifetime ( without any fixes ) for a camcorder is 2-4 years so it's kinda risky buying a 3 year old model
350cyp = 800$ and for 800$ i could by a dam good camcorder from US.

also here in cyprus most of the camcorders are around 350 cyp ( here we are not talking about 3CCD or High Definition camcorders ).

so thanks but at this price , i don't even know if it would worth for half the price that you are asking for it.

as i told, i have a few friend in the US so they could bring me a shine piece of a camcorder for no price.

[G.Man]

Hey you can make an offer, its unused except for stills, and still costs over $1000 new..
I paid £800 2 years ago without the extra battery, case, battery pack...

Make sure any camera you get from the US is switchable to the PAL standard for Video out...

http://welectronics.com/camcorder/sonydcr80E.html

Features:


Sony DCR-TRV80E MiniDV Handycam® PAL Camcorder overview:
DCR-TRV80E delivers exceptional-quality digital video, digital audio, and 2.0 megapixel digital still images.
DCR-TRV80E features BIP (improved Bluetooth® capability, enabling peer-to-peer data transfers between Bluetooth® products) networking.
USB streaming.
Best price at welectronics.com
Revolutionary Carl Zeiss™ Lens T* coating for a 70% improved reflection rate.
A sprawling list of powerful features and design elements.
New touch panel with included stylus to access the functions of the camcorder.
DCR-TRV80E Features:
2.1 Megapixel (Gross) Advanced HAD™ CCD Imager.
MiniDV Recording.
Network Capability with Bluetooth™ Technology.
Professional Quality Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® Lens.
10X Optical/120X Precision Digital Zoom.
3.5" SwivelScreen™ Touch Panel LCD Display (184K Pixels) with Stylus.
Precision Color Viewfinder (180K).
USB Streaming.
Digital Still Memory Mode.
MPEG Movie EX Mode.
Manual Focus/Zoom Ring.
Expanded Focus Indicator.
Progressive Shutter System.
Intelligent Pop-Up Flash.
i.LINK® DV Interface (IEEE 1394).
Super SteadyShot® Picture Stabilization System.
Super NightShot® and Color Slow Shutter.
InfoLithium® Battery with AccuPower™ Meter System.
Stamina® Power Management System.
Software OS Compatibility: Microsoft® Windows® 98SE, 2000, Me, XP; Macintosh® 8.5.1 - 9.1.
Dimensions (WHD): 2 7/8" x 3 3/4" x 6 3/4" (73mm x 93mm x 169mm).
Weight: 1 lb 9 oz (720g).
NOTE: PAL camcorders are not compatible with NTSC format (used in USA) televisions and VCRs.



SONY DCR TRV-80E
Qty: Price: $1349.99

[devil]

If you buy new, don't be fooled by high-definition models or DVD ones, especially if you plan to do any editing. These use MPEG-2 as their recording format and the compression is high, making editing difficult. Also, HD is still in a state of flux and, until the dust settles (may take 12-24 months), no one knows which way the market will go. My advice for the best quality:price ratio, go for Mini-DV, which is also the easiest format to edit with practically no quality loss. I believe Panasonic is the maker with the most reliable products and gives the best quality images with good bang for the buck. When shopping around, don't be influenced by enormous numbers of gimmicks you will never use; hold the camera and choose one that you can hold and use comfortably (difficult with today's miniaturisation). Using the viewfinder (not the LCD panel), hold it to your eye with both hands and see whether you can hold it reasonably still on full optical telephoto (don't try with digital telephoto), indicating a good balance. Have the image stabilisation off for this test.

I started video over 20 years ago and have had enormous experience, both in shooting and editing (I am an official beta tester for one of the major makers of professional video-editing and DVD authoring software). Both my present cams are Panasonic 3-CCD Mini-DV models and I'm delighted with them. You can PM me if you wish advice on video editing.

[zan]

Devil

I will of course bow to your extensive experience on this but I have had two Hi8 video cameras in the past and have recently bought a Mini DVD camera when my last one packed up. I have to say that the editing and playing part on the DVD is much easier for me. By finalising the disk you can play it on any DVD player quickly. You can skip from scene to scene at speeds the DV can only dream of, which makes editing much more enjoyable. As far as I know I thought that DVD was better quality than DV. The one down side for me was that the DVD mini does not record for as long as the tape versions but I don't really know how much longer you can get on a full size disk and whether there are models that do dual layer. Again I bow to your knowledge on this but I thought I would just add my experience on the subject to help things along. If the user wanted quick results without editing then the DVD is great because you don’t have to wear out the camera by using it as the player as well although having said that am I right in saying that the DV can be played in a normal video player. The Hi8 could not be played in any player except the camera and I found the camera packed up faster. Love to hear what you think.

[Amadeo]

as i said i prefer miniDV camcorders. i was looking for a panasonic model 1 CCD, i don't want to buy an expensive one, the panasonic pv-gs85 it;s looking very interesting but is not a PAL model ( is NTSC ). i would like something with the right ( true ) colors and good night shoot capabilities or some shoe for an extra lamp. Images stabilization as OIS. I also like the Canon Elura 100 ( this one has also a PAL version ) but unfortunately it has some problem with the audio, you can really hear the noise of the rotating tape. The mini DVD are out of the question, i like to control the compression level. Unfortunately my major problem is the PAL/NTSC because most of the camcorders from US are in NTSC system. And i would like to be able to connect the palmcorder to the TV without any conversion hardware ( PAL to NTSC and NTSC to PAL ).

[devil]

OK, perhaps I didn't make myself clear about editing. I meant by that taking the video into a PC (or even a MAC!) and using an editing software, from which you can make a DVD.

DV v. DVD
To understand the difference, let's start by stating that, to record video requires very large amounts of data. Uncompressed, we would need more than 100 Gb/hour or 30 Mb/s, which would require enormous tape or disc sizes and very performing PC gear for editing. In short, it is not really practical. For this reason, the video is nearly always compressed.

The DV standard has what is called I-frame compressing. That means that each frame is compressed in much the same way as a JPEG image by a factor of about 8, giving about 13 Gb/h or 3.7 Mb/s. This is a good system giving excellent quality with few artefacts (you have to look really hard to find them). The advantage of I-frame compression is that you can edit and re-render the video without losing any more quality.

A standard single-layer full-size DVD disc holds a maximum of 4.38 Gb (not 4.7 as the makers pretend). If it is to hold 1 h of video and audio, it is clear that, instead of 13 Gb/h, you have about 4.3 Gb/h. IOW, the compression is about 3 times more than with DV. If you did I-frame compression down to this level, it would look really awful, very awful, indeed, so they have come up with an astuce. They make every 12th frame an I frame (usual for PAL). In other words, these frames are compressed similarly to DV. The other 11 frames between these I-frames are called P-frames and B-frames and consist of the data only showing the differences between the current frame and the nearest I-frame, before or after. In reality, they are mixed a little to give the illusion of smoother movements. Therefore, the quality is reasonable, despite the low bitrate, but never as good as DV, all other things being equal. There are other differences which we do not need to go into here. However, here is the crunch with the MPEG-2 compression used for DVDs. If you edit, you have to re-encode it and this means re-rendering a reconstituted video and you seriously lose quality because the P- and B-frames do not contain the full data of the image. This is why I do not recommend any DVD cam if you plan on doing any editing. If the quality is acceptable, fine if you never want editing done.

Sorry, but DV is definitely higher quality than DVD but the difference is most noticeable with high-end cams with good optics, 3 large CCDs etc. That is why there are no high-end DVD cams on the market; there would be no improvement in video quality by the nature of the compression. As you say, DVD is great when you need instant scene selection without editing other than cuts.

I have a DV drive on my dedicated video computer, so I don't need to use either of my cams for downloading from DV tape. However, I agree that these drives are expensive and not easy to find (fully professional). I'm surprised that someone hasn't come up with a consumer version at, say, £150 or 200. Many of my semi-pro colleagues doing things like weekend wedding videos buy cheap cams with broken lenses or faulty CCDs to use as a drive to reduce wear on their cams. However, my older mini-DV cam is 11 years old (big semi-pro type) and I used it for years for downloading before I got the DV computer drive and it has literally had hundreds of tapes passing through it and its performance is still better than my newer one (slightly more consumer oriented, although 3-CCD) so I don't think wear is too big a problem with mini-DV. Actually the drives are strictly identical, even down to the colour of the plastic guides, despite the 6 years of difference between the manufacture.

Sorry for the long techie screed!

[G.Man]

DVD holds the disk standard of 4.7gb which is 1000x1000x1000 etc etc.. as opposed to the real definition which is 1024x1024x1024 hence the difference between quoted 4.7 and actual 4.38

This is well known in computer land..

Amadeo
My camera is PAL if you decide to make an offer

[Amadeo]

I have to be agree with "devil" regarding miniDV's.
if we take Canon, Panasonic, Sony' latest models what do you thing about Ihem.
Using dvd might look easy but actually makes me wonder. what happens if tomorrow somebody came up with new revolutionary encoding technique ( i don't know ) ?