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Direct flights - 7000 in favour and only 300 against

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby YFred » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:20 am

Paphitis wrote:
YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
YFred wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
doesntmatter wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Therefore, any direct flights can only occur if the RoC declares ERCAN a legitimate port. That can only happen if ERCAN comes under the RoC Civil Aviation Department's jurisdiction.

The laws and regulations can be and does get changed/ammended to suit the big boys and a handful of GC/Greeks are not going to step them doing what they want.

Unfortunately for you, Turkish Cypriots or the "TRNC" are not considered "big boys" and after 35 years I thought you would've realized that by now.



Plots for the new hotels on the Mağusa strip have been bought by the same "big boys". Fancy that, I wonder why they did that?


You can't just come here and make statements like this.

Who are the "big boys" and can you please provide some evidence which confirms their investment?

When you say Magusa strip, are you referring to the Ghost Town by any chance? :?


From Turkish Magusa to Karpaz.

The list, I'll do one better, next time I am there I will take pictures of the construction and publish it on here.


Sorry, that is not good enough. Anyone can take pictures of a construction site.

You insinuated that there is GC Investment on the Magusa Strip.

Can you verify this? I am not interested in your pictures.


I will asap. I'll use my open line to Talat.
Last edited by YFred on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby YFred » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:30 am

This one also makes interesting reading.

Former civil aviation official claims gross negligence
By Elias Hazou
(archive article - Wednesday, August 30, 2006)
A FORMER official with Civil Aviation yesterday fingered the department for apathy and lack of professional ethos, saying these played a big part in last year’s crash of a Cypriot airliner.

Charalambos Hadjigeorgiou, ex-director of the Civil Aviation’s licensing department-turned whistleblower, was testifying to a committee of inquiry in Nicosia tasked with finding liability for the disaster that cost the lives of 121 people.

In its second day of proceedings, the committee, headed by former Supreme Court judge Panayiotis Kallis, heard claims that negligence was the order of the day in the corridors of Civil Aviation, the department whose job it is to ensure air safety.

Not one to pull any punches, Hadjigeorgiou named persons in key positions who carried out their duties negligently and in a slipshod manner.

The department was characterised by an absence of discipline, he claimed.

And even though the many problems – such as insufficient manpower – were known to the people in charge and often brought up at meetings, nothing was done to remedy the situation.
For example, a proposal to hire more staff fell by the wayside.

But more alarmingly, Hadjigeorgiou accused, no in-flight checks were ever carried out aboard the ill-fated Boeing 737, despite repeated incidents of falling temperatures inside the cabin.

On Monday, a stewardess told the committee that the aircraft had experienced some problems during a flight to London just one day before the crash. She said ice had accumulated on the cabin door, adding that passengers had been complaining that they were cold, forcing the pilot to switch on the heating, adding that a funny noise could be heard during take off and landing.

It has also transpired that on the fateful day, the last man to have had contact with the pilot of the plane was an unqualified stand-in, as the proper official had been on night-shift duty.

Hadjigeorgiou also alleged that Civil Aviation was biased in favour of Helios Airways at the expense of other airlines.

For instance, he said, charter firm Eurocypria had on one occasion asked for permission to hire two American aviators, but their request was denied. By contrast, Helios had no problem hiring five pilots, even though they did not have EU licences, Hadjigeorgiou maintained.

Worse, Hadjigeorgiou said, Civil Aviation was deliberately misleading EU air safety authorities by painting a rosy picture of the department, when that was anything but.

In one case, he had personally asked permission to set up a helicopter school based at Paphos airport, and his request was immediately granted. At the time – around August 2003 – Hadjigeorgiou was not even employed at Civil Aviation. Yet this did not stop officials there from passing him off as the head of the ‘new unit’, giving a false and exaggerated impression of his position.

This was done to con foreign air safety authorities into thinking that Cyprus’ Civil Aviation was a robust organisation, he claimed.

Hadjigeorgiou’s indictments were promptly seized upon by the victims’ relatives, who said their worst fears were coming true.
Nicolas Yiasoumis, who heads a committee representing the aggrieved relatives, yesterday described Hadjigeorgiou’s statements as “a most official… confirmation of the problems we suspected [with Civil Aviation].

“It’s sad because the department was burying its head in the sand. To this day, they are plagued by the same problems,” Yiasoumis said.

Civil Aviation is just one of the organisations the relatives are blaming for the disaster. Manufacturers Boeing are also being sued in the United States for a string of alleged construction flaws on the 737-300.

“Those in responsible positions need to feel the weight of the chairs they’re sitting on…they must realise this is not just another desk job,” added Yiasoumis.

The report on the causes of the crash is due out sometime next month. It is believed that a combination of decompression problems and pilot errors caused the plane to fly unpiloted for almost three hours before running out of fuel and crashing just north of Athens.

One mystery that continues to baffle is why the pilots continued their ascent beyond 10,000 feet, evidently ignoring a possible decompression warning that sounded just minutes into the flight.



Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2008
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:37 am

Procedural Crash Investigations always follow an air accident.

During these investigations, a multitude of factors are put together to ascertain the chain the events which could have contributed to the accident. Accident Investigators work on the principle of the Swizz Cheese model, i.e. when the holes line up, an accident occurs. It is more of an opportunity in auditing other factors which may have cointributed.

A similar crash occured in Australia in the 90s. A Super King Air depressurised and there was no coockpit warning. The aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed.

Helios Airways was also a privately owned company, and its aircraft were maintained in foreign jurisdictions, and not in Cyprus.

The investigation does not prove that the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department is compromising safety at all. It is audited yearly by ICAO and any problems are only natural to occur, and are fixed quickly when identified.

Even authorities such as the FAA, UK CAA, CASA etc have fallen foul of ICAO regulations, standards or Aircraft Investigations. They are still statistically regarded as the safest jurisdictions, along with the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department. On the other hand, the "trnc" which does not even have an authority that is recognised, and nor does it have a recognised FIR, is deliberately compromises safety straight from the outset.

One thing that is almost standard is the fact that just about for every major accident world wide, deficiencies are identified by the crash investigators into that countries Air Traffic Procedures or its Aviation Regulatory body. This is done in order to further enhance safety standards and is not done to identify a scape goat.

Cyprus Airways is also regarded as one of the safest airlines in the world.

You might also want to consider that only about 8-10 international flights fly into Ercan a day, whereas in Cyprus there are many dozens of flights landing at both Larnaca and Paphos, and with thousands of others transiting the Nicosia FIR each day.

Please do not get me started about all the Turkish Airline accidents that have occured.
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Postby YFred » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:44 am

Paphitis wrote:
No No No. There is no controversy at all. KTHY has same planes but better pilots.
This is no a point scoring. Its a fact.


:lol: Really?

Can you please prove to me that KTHY pilots are better than Cyprus Airways Pilots, who are usually Oxford educated or former military.

How many GC pilots have ever been able to stand up to their airline and not take off due to safety issue.


I am a GC pilot that is still working in Australia. I also know many GC pilots that work for Cyprus Airways.

I can assure you that on an aircraft, there are no Managers or Directors. There is no commercial pressure when it comes down to SAFETY.

The Captain is in charge and responsible for the safety of the aircraft and passengers, and will cancel or delay any flight without batting an eye lid should he/she think that safety is compromised for whatever reason.

I personally have witnessed 3 occasions where KTHY Pilot refused to fly until aircraft was in fit condition. Making us wait upto 12 hours until another aircraft arrived. I thank them for that, because I am still alive.


GC pilots also cancel or delay flights for various reasons, including technical unserviceabilities, and weather. This is standard practice all over the world.

What is a proven fact, is the current airspace structure over Nicosia FIR not under RoC control. Pilots who fly in the area are always talking about this debacle. Just visit PPrune and do some research.

Safety is paramount to the KTHY pilots. Does this mean that they will not crash. No. But because of these pilots, statistically we safer.


Safety is paramount at Cyprus Airways as well.

However, what is unsafe is the ERCAN control area, which is not recognised by anyone and has made a mockery of established ICAO Air Traffic Control procedures. What is risky about the north part of Cyprus is the fact that the chances of a possible mid air collision are increased as aircraft are wrongfully cleared by ERCAN control to contact other authorities such as BEIRUT, without speaking to LARNACA, even when overflying the free areas.

Most airlines are now introducing Standard Operating Procedures which ensure that their pilots always speak to Larnaca, even when flying over occupied areas or entering Nicosia FIR from the north (Turkey).

This corner of airspace is referred to as CHAOS CORNER.


Does the solution not stare you in the face. As it is impossible to stop and its putting everyone’s lives at risk, shouldn’t the CAA actually, perhaps bite the bullet and approve ERCAN in the interest of everyone who uses this airspace. Surely as the official supervising authority, is CAA not negligent in knowing the existence of the problem and doing nothing about it. Perhaps they are waiting for a crash before they act. I don’t know I am speculating.

Was this not the case also with Helios crash or did I imagine that as well. Leave your GCness one side and as a pilot are you happy with the performance of CAA on both of these issues?
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:39 am

(11) The so-called flight control center in occupied Cyprus is illegal


1940:CYPPRESS:11

The so-called flight control center in occupied Cyprus is illegal, Leonidou says

Nicosia, Jan 12 (CNA) - The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), as well as other flight safety organizations, consider the activities of the so called flight control center, in Turkish occupied Cyprus, as illegal, said Monday Director of the Civil Aviation Department of Cyprus, Leonidas Leonidou.

''The whole air space of Cyprus is national and under the full control of the Republic of Cyprus", Leonidou said in statements to journalists on the sidelines of a seminar on flight safety, organized by the Cyprus Air Traffic Controllers Association in cooperation with the International Federation of Air Traffic Controllers' Associations and Eurocontrol.

Asked about the difficulties the Cypriot traffic controllers face due to the illegal operation of the airport in the Turkish occupied area of Tympou, Leonidou noted that the air traffic control area of the Republic of Cyprus "is not divided, it still remains unified".

But he added that ''there is interference due to the Turkish occupation and the illegal control center, the operation of which is illegal and falls outside the ICAO specifications and other flight safety organizations".

Leonidou recalled that the ICAO has already in the past expressed its opinion on the issue, namely that ''the whole air space of Cyprus is national and under the full control of the Republic of Cyprus, despite the fact that the Republic of Cyprus is prevented from exercising full control over its whole territory".

''So, based on the ICAO positions, it is clear that the air traffic controllers of the Republic are legalized and should exercise their duties over the whole Nicosia FIR (Flight Information Region)", he said.

Leonidou noted that the Republic of Cyprus fully recognizes the Flight Information Region of Ankara.

''We try to have full cooperation with them, but Turkey, in its effort to create an illegal entity in the northern Turkish occupied areas of Cyprus, has transferred the 'sovereignty' of part of the southern FIR of Turkey to what is called 'Ercan' center, so that they do not come in direct contact with our control center", he said.

Leonidou pointed out that the Turkish activities are illegal and cause many implications.

CNA/NMA/AAR/GV/2009
ENDS, CYPRUS NEWS AGENCY
12/01/2009
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:56 am

Was this not the case also with Helios crash or did I imagine that as well. Leave your GCness one side and as a pilot are you happy with the performance of CAA on both of these issues?


I am glad you ask this question, because I know for a fact that the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department is just like every other.

I am just as happy with the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department as I am with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia. There is absolutely no difference. The issues you mention exist in all countries, including Australia.

If people are killed within "ERCAN control", then it would be Turkey that is found negligent and not the RoC.
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Postby DT. » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:05 pm

Friend of mine was telling me the other day that a Cyprus Airways pilot friend of his on hearing the Tymbou control guy ask him for ID or course his reply every single day to him is

Ston Villon Mou! :lol:

(loosely translated as fuck off)
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:24 pm

DT. wrote:Friend of mine was telling me the other day that a Cyprus Airways pilot friend of his on hearing the Tymbou control guy ask him for ID or course his reply every single day to him is

Ston Villon Mou! :lol:

(loosely translated as fuck off)


This Cyprus Airways Pilot is far too polite. :lol:

Personally, I would love to hold down the Press To Talk switch and render the frequency unusable to other aircraft. :lol:
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Postby YFred » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:57 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Was this not the case also with Helios crash or did I imagine that as well. Leave your GCness one side and as a pilot are you happy with the performance of CAA on both of these issues?


I am glad you ask this question, because I know for a fact that the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department is just like every other.

I am just as happy with the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department as I am with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia. There is absolutely no difference. The issues you mention exist in all countries, including Australia.

If people are killed within "ERCAN control", then it would be Turkey that is found negligent and not the RoC.


What you are saying is that GC are in control but they are not responsible. Well well where have I heard that before.
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:00 pm

YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Was this not the case also with Helios crash or did I imagine that as well. Leave your GCness one side and as a pilot are you happy with the performance of CAA on both of these issues?


I am glad you ask this question, because I know for a fact that the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department is just like every other.

I am just as happy with the Cyprus Civil Aviation Department as I am with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia. There is absolutely no difference. The issues you mention exist in all countries, including Australia.

If people are killed within "ERCAN control", then it would be Turkey that is found negligent and not the RoC.


What you are saying is that GC are in control but they are not responsible. Well well where have I heard that before.


I thought you were not talking to me anymore.

Let me guess. You are female? :lol:
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