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Question of Armenian genocide - "Screamers" movie

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby shahmaran » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:58 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:Shahi boy,

For your information again you are wrong. GENOCIDE by definition is an action totally irrelevant to MOTIVE and relevant to intention, only if the INTENTION to wipe off all that group was put in practice and SUCCEEDED. (otherwise it is called attempted Genocide). And the only way to prove its SUCCESS BEYOND ANY DOUBT is the degree to which the Genocide was carried out. In other words what percentage or what numbers were finally WIPED OFF. So mere INTENTION is not Genocide.

For your 2nd information again there has NEVER been a complete (100%) Genocide no-where in the world. (Practically impossible).

For your 3rd information again the term "Genocide" has never received an official UN interpretation. In other words there has never been set a number or a percentage of deaths that specifies what it is.

Despite of all that what prevails on accepting something as a Genocide is the % of innocent civilians Wipped off relevant to the total.

Hopes this helps clear out your anti-numbers phobia. :wink:

But on the other hand here it is again.

1.5 million damn it!

:evil: :evil:


Ok Pyr, here is another definition for you from another source, i hope this one will clear up all the confusion in your little mind, because you seem awefully desperate to wiggle out of this one...



Noun

Singular
genocide


Plural
uncountable

genocide (uncountable)


1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.




So, my little Pyr, Turkey did kill a lot of people during WW1 and Armenians were just one of them, there was no attempt to ONLY destroy Armenians but everyone who was rising against the Turks, sepratist, religious whatever....if most of the Armenians decided to take a piece then thats just bad luck...

However, the same cannot exactly be said for the Greeks now can it, because there was a massive campaign against TCs which didnt discriminate really, it was just a matter of being Turkish or not, so THAT is attempted genocide as you put it, which failed miserably, if Turkey wanted to wipe out all the Armenians for whatever reason you think they might have, they would have done it long before, and by the way read your description again because you will find that it compleatly contradicts with the holocaust being genocide, so i hope that is not what you are suggesting now is it my little pyr ;)
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Postby shahmaran » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:04 am

pitsilos wrote:
shahmaran wrote:
pitsilos wrote:
shahmaran wrote:
pitsilos wrote:
shahmaran wrote:this is just it man, if Turkey doesnt think they have done it and if the world is soly acting up on the Armenian propaganda and lobys (just likee the GCs) then Turkey has already been put into a very unfair position, and IF Turkey has already suggested that the historians should investigate, what more do you want?! if France holds the right to punish anyone who denys the genocide without any real proof then so does Turkey hold the right to punish anyone who blames her for genocide without any proof, what is the differenec? because they are Turks and they MUST be dodgy?! what have you got to proove that Turkey is not open for investigations? you are so sure lets see you evidence....

here pitsilos just very briefly somethings i found with a quick search....


http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20 ... 717af.html

http://www.armenian-genocide-lie.com/ar ... logue-call

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1892412,00.html

http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=2048

http://www.bedribaykam.com/indexeng.php ... 21&arsiv=1

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/CH ... 2.HTM#%206

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/ ... consistent

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=32837

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/c ... 0105.shtml

and finally just to refresh your memory on the case incase you have started to "forget" things...or maybe you just choose not to see because it suits your anti-turk views, and ofcourse DEFINATELY not brainwashed :lol:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6045182.stm


so i would appreciate if you take the time to read it as i have taken the time to answer you and come back with evidence to support your claims...


shahmaran, i already said the french are in the wrong in shuting down freedom of speech.

now i just clicked on one link and read only one.
this one
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1892412,00.html
now this article does not offer any proof or evidense at all, it only says less people were killed from a common cold. :lol:

i agree with tukey's stand on this one. france can't demand the high ground when it expects different from turkey.

are you sure you know what proof is mate. something directly out of the archives. have you got anything?

turkey doesn't need armenia to open the archives. she can do all that her self rather than go around kissing yanking ass mate. its embarrasing, when you claim you have archives and proof and you prefer to kiss ass instead.


pistilos your argument is geting weaker by the minute MATE, i see you have not taken the time to read anything and you are very happily spilling your ignorance one more time...so if it doesnt aggree with you its either PROPAGANDA or NOT WORTH READING or IGNORANCE or BULLSHIT FROM A YOUNG PERSON....nice ;)

im sorry but you only read 1 and you still talk?! try the others they are all about different points, if you want something from the Ottoman archives them im sorry but i cant help you, however i still think this is more than what you had to offer as an "argument" and still have the face to desperately hold on to a few minor points you made which was hardly relevant...

Armenia does NOT allow the questioning of the genocide, as far as they are concerned IT HAS HAPPENED and anyone who doubts it can go to jail, as people have when they tried to investigate the case in Armenia, thats why they reject Turkeys offers for investigation by saying there is nothing to investigate, so either read the rest of the sites or just cut the crap MATE!

...oh and Americas self interest based stance on the matter hardly changes the truth, so Gul kissing US ass holds no weight for the actual truth of the genocide, those are just the typical greedy yanky assholes who are ready to do anything for a bit of oil...


good morning sunshine,

it was 2:00 am and i was finishing some deadlines. this forum is a side line for amusement. sorry i tried for the record but i couldn't even come close. :lol: needed to go to bed.

i picked that particular news article, because, i thought, being english it would have given me a short article to read.

I am going to try one more an make it simple for your shahmaran.

here we go.

i said france is wrong in trying to shut down freedom of speech, in a democracy, regardless of how wrong it is. people are not sheep, well with the exemption of the US :lol: , and are more than capable in making their own mind when evidence are shown. shutting down freedom of speech, firstly, have you got something to hide comes to mind, and secondly discourages finding facts.

in one sence what france is trying to do is not helluva different to what turkey is doing, except they are on the opposite scale. we can argue on this till the cows come home, but at the end of the day they are both wrong.

I still can't see, and a few clippings ain't gonna cut it, as to why turkey does't open her books encourage a debate within your own historians and present the facts to the world. now when you present facts, history to the world, it cannot be seen as propaganda, coz you are also presenting facts.

what we have today, is turkey not calling it a genocide and disputing the numbers. well my question is if the archives are shut, and turkey is inviding armenia to do it together, how on earth does turkey know if it was or wasn't a genocide and how many people died if the archives are still shut? or if she has proof why not present the facts from the archives? you said your self you haven't got any.

i have been consistant in what i am saying and so far you still don't see the point.

another point that baffles me is why go to the us and plead for a presidential veto for a non recognition when you got the answers? surely you must conceed doing so, you will pay for it ten fold. such actions can only question your credibility, you know this and i know this and the whole world knows this. I would say the concessions will go along these lines.
1...establishment for a kurdistan incl kirkuk
2...maybe the war with iran is already started, the planning at least, coz the yanks ain't gonna have a repeat of the last time.
what amazes me is that turkey would rather conceed to all these demands, well any demands, knowing this will come up again in a couple of years. similar to a crack junky.

all these logical reasons must raise suspicions as to why turkey ain't opening all those archives and presenting the evidence.

how can turkey deny the charges if she is not willing to present evidents. its call tried and guilty in absentia. you can scream all you want shahmaran but i am afraid world opinion ain't gonna change and you can sit there and scream unfair, while you know and i know turkey is doing shit to change world opinion.

open the archives, encourage healthy debates with your own historians, let the facts freely flow without intimidation and lets see what happens. such turkey in my book would mean an asset to the world.

now shahmaran is the above propaganda or have you got a new word for it.

...oh and Americas self interest based stance on the matter hardly changes the truth, so Gul kissing US ass holds no weight for the actual truth of the genocide, those are just the typical greedy yanky assholes who are ready to do anything for a bit of oil...

on the contrary shahmaran, let me ask you, if the genocide ain't true why would gul go all the way to the other side of the world to kiss ass and concede concessions? anything to hide perhaps?



pitsilos its amazing how much you can say yet not really say anything that you havent already said as contrary to everything i have presented before you, you still only read what you like to read and ignore everything else, i have showed in a few different articles Turkeys invitation for historians to investigate and also Armeninas refusal to investigate anything that can remotely deny or leave a doubt of their claims, so you basically simply refuse everything you read and still choose to "shout" about your little conspiracy theories, which is fine but i have nothing further to add to this debate for you, unless you really start reading and talking sense...

Turkey is not the country that is REFUSING TO RUN FURTHER INVESTIGATIONS ON THE MATTER! why does that not say anything to you, it really puzzles me but whatever, like you say "its just side-line for amusement"...


whats your point of reading and reading? why invide shahmaran? why no just open the fuckers up and make them accesible to the world? put them on the net, let universities have a go at them. whats holding turkey back mate? this is what i call an open society shahmaran. Turkey can say all she wants but unless she opens the archives and make them accessible nothing is gonna chance. turkey will ve viewed with contempt.

i am afraid actions speak louder than words. open the fuckers up for the world to see, don't just invite people.

has turkey done any of the above? or are we for ever gonna be reading from news articles, like hearsay.



yeah obviously Armenian words speak a lot louder then their actions compared to Turks for some reason :roll:, but what the hell man, you are going in circles, you dont even bother reading, have you actually looked at the link turkish_cypiot has put forward? because if you had you wouldnt be talking like this...
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Postby T_C » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:05 am

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Pits what is wrong with you mate? I think youre seriously ignorant to the point your brain rejects anything that doesnt suit its purpose.

BELOW ARE THE OTTOMAN ARCHIVES AT YOUR DISPOSAL, ONLINE SINCE 1995!

http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin ... menian.htm


Turkey isnt trying to hide anything, the only problem is the amount of ignorant people who would rather sit there and make their own conclusions without doing their homework first!
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Postby pitsilos » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:30 am

ARMENIAN IN OTTOMAN DOCUMENTS


ARMENIAN IN OTTOMAN DOCUMENTS
(1915 – 1920)
ANKARA–1995
TABLE OF CONTENTS
GENERÝC
PREFACE
FOREWORD
ABBREVIATIONS
DISTRIBUTION OF PUBLISHED DOCUMENTS ACCORDING TO THE FUND THEY ARE LOCATED IN
THE OTTOMAN ARCHIVES

CHAPTER I
INTRODUCTION

A- OVERVIEW OF TURCO-ARMENIAN RELATIONS THROUGHOUT HISTORY
a- Reasons for the deportation and the measures taken
b- Taking and initiating the deportation decision
c- Regions where the deportation decision was implemented
d- Areas where Armenians were deported
e- Armenians not subject to deportation
f- Problems faced during deportation
g- Allocation of funds for the deportation
h- Condition of the Armenians’ immovable properties
i- The discontinuation of deportations
j- Armenians after deportation
k- Permission given to those Armenians wishing to return

CHAPTER II
SUMMARY AND TRANSCRIPTION OF DOCUMENTS
1- The World War and the Turco-Armenian Question
2- The deportation of the Armenians of Dörtyol
3- Cruelties towards the Muslims and prisoners of war in the Caucasus
4- Russian and Armenian cruelties towards the Ottoman prisoners of war
5- Cruelties towards the Muslims and prisoners of war in the Caucasus
6- Deportation of the refugees of Aintab to Zeitun
7- The end of the deportation of Armenians to Konya, and their subsequent
deportation to Aleppo, Zor and Urfa
8- The deportation of Armenians who were sent from Haydarpaþa by train to Ayaþ
and Çankýrý
9- Determining the number of Armenians in order to ascertain the amount of
funds to be expended for the Armenians who were sent to Konya
10- The dismissal of Armenians officials who are revolutionary committee
members and who have proven to be disloyal
11- Allowing some Armenians who were sent to Çankýrý, to return to Ýstanbul
12- That Diran Kelekyan may reside in any province he wishes outside of
Ýstanbul
13- The deportation of the Armenians of Zeitun
14- The expulsion and deportation of Armenians who are numerous in the
provinces of Van and Bitlis
15- The drafting of books showing the names and occupations of Armenians in
Ayaþ and Çankýrý
16- The number of Armenians expelled from Haçin, Dörtyol, etc., and their
destinations
17- The deportation decision of the cabinet
18- Deportation of the Armenians who were removed from Erzurum, to the south
of Urfa and Mossul and the sanjak of Zor
19- Resettlement of the Armenians of the province of Van, to Mossul, Zor and
Urfa
20- Procedures to be implemented regarding Christians who are allies of the
enemy and Muslims who collaborate with them
21- Providing information on the situation as Armenian villages are evacuated
22-The deportation of the Armenians of Erzurum because of its proximity to the
Russian border
23- Payment of the Armenians’ food and lodging expenses from the fund
allocated for the refugees
24- That the debts of deported Armenians will not be claimed
25- Implementation of the deportation procedures in areas where Armenians are
numerous
26- Sending Azadamard Hacý Hayk Tiryak, an Armenian revolutionary committee
member, to Ayaþ
27- Letting the Armenians who reside due to commercial and similar
(activities), stay
28-That it is not appropriate for the 500 Armenians of Ezine to stay there and
to deport them to other locations
29- The goods and possessions left behind by Armenians who emigrated, and the
Armenians whose deportation has been postponed
30- The Armenians who were sent from Develi to Aksaray
31- The money order sent in response to the instructions relating to the
settlement of Armenians and their food and lodging expenses
32- That it is requested that an American member be sent in order to assist
the Armenians of Zeitun who were deported to Konya
33- That it is not appropriate to deport Armenians from provincial
subdivisions and other related areas outside Küçük Ýncesu
34- Protecting the deported Armenians on the roads and punishing those who
attack them
35- That Armenians deported from Erzurum were attacked; that the necessary
preventive measures be taken for their protection
36- The deportation of the Armenians of Suþehri; and not to deport the
Armenians of Sivas
37- The deportation of the Armenians of Sis
38- That it is not possible to immediately transport ten thousand refugees
39- The investigation of the situation of the deported Armenians
40- That the Armenian Catholic missionaries remain in Erzurum
41- The expulsion of the Armenian plenipotentiary
42- Settling the Armenians to the west of the Baghad line
43- Settling the Armenians to the east and south of the Baghdad line
44- Giving information on the settlement areas of the Armenian inhabitants
45- Settling the Armenian children in orphanages
46- That the deportation of Armenians be carried out in security
47- The situation of the homeless Armenian children
48- Settlement of Greeks in Greek and Armenian villages
49- Attacks by Dersim bandits on Armenians convoys
50- Protecting the goods of deported Armenians
51- Lodging of refugees in Armenians villages
52- The distribution of the inhabitants in the war regions
53- That the Armenian officials in the Public Debts will remain where they are
54- Protecting the abandoned properties and recording them in the books
55- That there is not sufficient information on deported Armenians
56- Conflicts between Muslims and Armenians within the Urfa district
57- Armenians deported from Ordu, Perþembe, Ulubey, Görele, Tirebolu, Sürmene
and Trabzon
58- Deportation of Armenians who converted to Islam
59- With the exception of those Armenians who are tradesmen and merchants,
expelling the Armenians who are members of revolutionary committees
60- The travel ban imposed on Armenians and ruling on the request of an
Armenian who is a Bulgarian citizen, to go to Bulgaria
61- Harvesting tho crops in areas from where Armenians have been expelled
62- Expanding the area where Armenians will be settled, and to settle them
based on a ratio of 10% of the Muslim population
63- Expanding the areas allocated for the settlement of Armenians
64- That Armenians may sell their movable properties to Muslims
65- Giving information on the individuals who, among the deported Armenians
were employed at the Régie
66- Determining the debts of deported Armenians and protecting their goods
67- That the travel ban for Armenians does not pertain to those who are not
Ottoman subjects
68- Providing information on the places and names of deported Armenians
69- Procedures to be carried out regarding the effects of deported Armenians
70- Because Armenians settled in the sanjak of Zor have surpassed 10% of the
population, that deportation to that area be ceased
71- That allegations of a massacre be investigated and that preventive
measures implemented for Armenians are not implemented for the Christian
population
72- That Armenians who have converted to Islam be also expelled
73- Deportation of Armenian soldiers to worker battalions
74- That publications not be published without permission regarding matters
that pertain to state policy
75- That Armenians between 16-60 years not be let outside the country
76- That Catholic Armenians not be deported
77- That the entries and exits to and from the country be regulated throughout
the mobilization
78- Ascertainment of the news about the deportation of Greeks together with
the Armenians
79- The distribution of Armenian families without a male member and of young
children
80- Payment of debts and credits of deported Armenians
81- Protecting the movable properties of deported Armenians
82- Those who converted to Islam, those who got married and the inheritance
matters of the children
83- That Protestant Armenians to be deported
84- That Armenian members of parliament and their families not be expelled
85- That the deportation of photographer Papazyan of Ýstanbul be postponed
86- Problems faced during the deportation of Armenians
87- The areas where Armenians will be deported
88- That the Armenians of Antalya not be deported
89- That Armenian children in Bilecik-Muratça not be deported
90- That officials and other workers working for the railroad not be deported
91- That teachers and children not be deported
92- That the children in the Haruniye orphanage not be disturbed
93- That the matter in the telegram sent from Yozgat be investigated
94- The deportation of the Armenians of Bitlis and Muþ
95- That the families of soldiers and officers not be deported
96- Marrying the Armenian girls who have converted to Islam
97- The deportation to Aleppo of Armenians who arrived in Kütahya
98- That officials may buy houses from Armenians
99- The objectives and principles which must be kept in mind in the
deportation of Armenians
100- Fighting between Armenian bands and the gendarmerie in Mamuretülaziz
101- That preventive measures be taken to prevent attacks by Armenian bands to
Muslims villages
102- Protection and deportation of Armenians who have been gathered
103- That the correspondence of the American consul in Mamuretülaziz to the
American ambassador in Ýstanbul, has been seen
104- That Armenians who are ill not be deported
105- The Armenians who have been deported from Aleppo
106- The Armenians located in Yozgat, Kýrþehir, Haymana, Nallýhan and Sungurlu
and the Armenians who have been deported from Ankara
107- Armenians who have been deported from Ýzmit
108- Armenians who have been deported from Eskiþehir
109- Armenians who have been deported from Kayseri
110- Deportation of Armenians Karahisar and Çay
111- Armenians who have been deported from Eskiþehir
112- Armenians who have been deported from Diyarbakýr, and that there are no
Armenians left to be deported
113- There are no Armenians to be deported in Niðde
114- The Armenians deported from Mamuretülaziz and the situation of convoys
who have gone from Sivas to Urfa
115- That Armenians not be deported from Urfa
116- Armenians who have come to Damascus from Aleppo and who have been
deported to various areas and Armenians in Hama and Humus
117- Deportation of Armenians to Mossul
118- Armenians to be deported from Karahisar
119- Deportation of Armenians of Ankara, Kalecik and Keskin
120- That the arrangements and the regulations that were announced regarding
the deportation were not fully implemented
121- That the deportation of Armenians who arrived in Osmaniye was completed
without incidents
122- Armenians who were deported from Sivas
123- Foreigners and Arkenians who were taken out of Konya
124- Armenians who were deported from Konya
125- Armenians who were deported from Konya
126- The deportation and expulsion of the Armenians of Cebel-i Bereket and
Dörtyol
127- Armenians who were deported from Konya
128- The lodging and feeding of the population who migrated from Dimetoka and
vicinity
129- That the relatives of Aram Efendi in Aleppo be provided comfort
130- That the refugees who are dying because of fever and dysentery be
immediately relocated at their special locations
131- That the refugees who are dying because of fever and dysentery fever be
relocated at their special locations
132- That Armenians who pay the travel expenses may leave
133- Armenians who are in Konya to be sent to Kütahya
134- Armenians who are in the Karahisar and Çay stations
135- Settlement of Armenians who have served well during the Aleppo
deportation, to other areas
136- Armenians who have been deported from Konya
137- Armenians who have been deported from Akþehir and Konya
138- Armenians sent from Diyarbakýr
139- Armenians deported from Konya
140- That the Armenians of Konya not be deported before instructions arrive
141- Request for permission to work for the Armenian officials in the Ottoman
Bank in Adana
142- That the Armenians in the province of Kastamonu not be expelled
143- The dismissal of the kaymakam (district official) of Tenos who acted
contrary to rules
144- The dismissal of the kaymakam (district official) who, during the
Armenian deportations acted contrary to rules
145- Providing food for the Armenian convoys
146- Halting the deportation of Armenians
147-Assisting Muslims whose houses were burned down
148- Leaving Begos, the nephew of Agop Boyacýyan Efendi, in Konya
149- Preventing the attacks during deportation
150- Deportation of Armenians from Birecik
151- Settling the families of Catholics, Protestants and soldiers to
appropriate locations
152- Feeding the Armenians deported to the area of the Fourth Army
153- Dispatching the gendarmerie who acted inappropriately to the military
court
154- Providing bread to the Armenians
155- The areas where Armenians will be settled
156- Appointment of a new member to the delegation responsible of the
prevention of the abuses during the deportation of Armenians
157- Armenians who arrived in Zor via Aleppo
158- Armenians of Aintab and Ýzmit who arrived in Zor
159- The Armenians of Aintab, Tekfurdaðý, Karahisar and Akþehir who reached
Zor
160- The Armenians of Mar’aþ, Bursa and Adapazarý who arrived in Zor
161- The Armenians of Ýzmit and Samsun who arrived in Zor
162- The deportation of Armenians
163- Sendin the book indicating the number of Armenians in areas that are
under the jurisdiction of Konya
164- The number of Armenians employed in the railroad who are exempt from
deportation
165- Providing information on Armenian employees in the Public Debts and the
Régie who are exempt from deportation
166- That Armenians are not taken out of the provinces where they are located
167- That Armenians are not taken out of their areas without permission
168- The Armenians’ smuggling large amonts of funds to Switzerland
169- That Armenians who have not betrayed and who have no relations with
revolutionary committees not be deported
170- That the deportation of Armenians be ceased
171- The report to be prepared by Abdülahad Nuri Bey, the Director of
Deportations
172- Providing information on the situation of Armenians remaining within the
province
173- The feeding and lodging of Armenian families
174- Return of Armenian workers to Mar’aþ
175-The number of Armenians who have not been deported, who have arrived from
other areas and who are on their way
176- Providing information on the number of Armenians
177- Protection of the Armenians by the sanjak governor of Mar’aþ
178- Dispersing the Armenians of Balýkesir to the appropriate villages
179- The feeding and lodging of homeless Armenians
180- Providing information on the sites where Armenian families are set up,
and on those who are foreign nationals
181- Returning the deported Catholics to their areas
182- Settling the orphans of those to be evacuated, in orphanages
183- The deportation of foreign Armenians in Aleppo
184- The deportation of foreign Armenians in Aleppo
185- That the commissions the classify abandoned properties have been annexed
to the Ministry of Finance
186- The return of the relative of Hýrlakyan Efendi Mar’aþ
187- Relocating the foreign Armenians in Aleppo to Zor
188- Treating the Armenians in accordance with the instructions
189- Returning the Armenian woman in Rakka and her two daughters to Aleppo
190- Relocating the dangerous and revolutionary Armenians in Konya to Zor
191- The feeding of the Armenian orphans
192- Settling the Armenian girls with their families or in Darüleytam
193- That the Armenian railroad officials and temporary employees not leave
their areas without permission
194- Investigating the location of Armenians sent from Ýzmir to be deported to
Mossul
195- Providing information on the number and names of Armenians who are
dangerous and who must be expelled
196-Giving permission to the Armenians who have been announced, to leave
197- Feeding the homeless and destitute Armenians
198- Sending a book indicating the activities of the Armenians, members of
revolutionary committees, who have been expelled
199- Distributing the worthless possessions of Armenians who left Çanakkale
200- Relocating the revolutionary committee members who were sent from Ýzmir,
to Mar’aþ
201-The relocation of Armenian revolutionaries from Ýzmir to Zor
202-The destinations of the Armenians to be relocated
203- Providing for the needs of the refugees in Yozgat who are naked,
destitute and without any fuel
204- Providing allowance for the Armenians to be sent to Zor
205-Reasons for the deportation of Armenians
206-Payment of debts to the Ziraat Bank from the abandoned real property and
land
207-Relocating the Armenians who collaborated with the Armenian
revolutionaries in Geyve
208- Expelling five dangerous Armenians outside the district
209-That Armenians are allowed to return
210- Preventive measures taken for the inhabitants who will be returned to
their countries
211-Preventive measures taken regarding the deportation of Armenians
212- Returning the Greeks and Armenians to their communities
213- Assisting the return of Armenians and meeting their needs
214- Matters to be taken into consideration regarding the return of the
Armenians
215- The return of the Armenians to their countries
216- Role of Liman von Sanders in the relocation of Armenians
217- The removal of Greeks from the vicinity of Ayvalýk
218- That Haçador Bezzazyan was paid
219- That a delegation be sent for the investigation of those who committed
crimes during the deportations, and that their expenses be met
220- That those who committed crimes during the deportations be tried by
military courts
221- That the expenses of the delegations supervising the deportation and the
return of Armenians, be met from the mobilization funds
222- That Greeks who have committed crimes and escaped to Greece and to other
foreign countries be banned from returning to the Ottoman lands
223- That a commission consisting of impartial jurists be established to
investigate the deportations
224- To assist the neediest of the returning Armenians
225- Treatment of Armenian children
226- The deportation of Armenian women, children and the sick by vehicle
227- Explaining the regulations relating to the assistance provided to the
frail Armenians in the villages
228- Paying the expenses relating to the deportation and feeding of Armenians
229- The travel allowance to be given to Armenians subject to being relocated
230-Ensuring the protection of Armenian orphans
231- Assistance provided to Greeks and Armenians
232- Providing the expenses of the delegation that will go to Anatolia
233- The return of the possessions of Greeks and Armenians who have returned
234- The investigation by the joint committee of the situation of Armenians
and Greeks
235- Investigating the complaints regarding Armenian orphans
236-That the Muslim refugees and emigrants not be wronged
237- That the expenses be paid out of the mobilization fund
238- That the relocation of Armenians en masse not be allowed
239- The reason for a second request for funds for Arab, Greek and Armenian
families
240- That Greeks who were removed from their villages be allowed to return
241- The deportation of Armenians, whose postponement is not appropriate
242- Paying the expenses of the commission that will investigate the feeding,
dispatching and lodging condition of the returning Greeks and Armenians
243- That the Armenians children who are with Muslim families be delivered to
the commission consisting of Armenians
244- The return of the real estate and land of Armenians who have returned to
Yalova and Laledere
245- Paying the expenses of the priest, Simpat Efendi
246- The return of the properties of Armenians and Greeks who were relocated
247- Investigation of those who mistreated Armenians during the deportations
248- Investigating the claim that Tal’at Bey, the kaymakam of the kaza of
Keskin killed Armenians
249- Returning the possessions that were temporarily transferred to government
offices, to their owners
250- Returning the non-Muslim children to their relatives or to their
communities
251- Feeding the returning Armenians
252- Returning two Armenian children who were circumcised
253- Request to return to Aintab the officials under arrest who were
dispatched to Aleppo due to the deportation matter
254- Assistance provided to the Armenian and Greek refugees
255- Exempting Armenians and Greeks from some taxes
256- Providing food for the Armenians
257- Bringing back Artin Efendi’s family who was dispatched
258- Providing assistance to individuals investigating the return of Greeks
and Armenians
259- Handing over the possessions of those who have returned to their lands
260- The return of those who escaped to Germany
261- Regarding the denial of the proposal to establish investigative
commissions
262- Settlement of Armenian widows and orphans
263- That money was sent for the return of Armenians to their lands
264- The dispatching of refugees free of charge
265- Trying those who committed crimes during the deportations
266- The Armenian industrialist Madriros applies to the court for the return
of his properties
267- That the claims that the Greek and Armenian inhabitants were attacked,
are unfounded
268- The report of Mehmet Münir Bey, the legal advisor, on the activities of
Armenians and the reasons for the deportations
269- The letter of Bishop Kendifyan from Diyarbakýr about the activities of
Armenians
270- The policy to apply to those who got mixed in the deportation matter and
who are under arrest
271- Request for amnesty by the British political monitor for Ahmet Refik
272- Exempting the Armenians from tax
BIBLIOGRAPHY
LIST OF SUBJECTS RELATIVE TO DOCUMENTS (in alphabetical order)
Yayýnlar


thanks for the link, but just one look at the index tells me its biased. can you spot it?

but as i am interested in this topic i will read it when i have some time, or better still i will probably end up buy the book at some stage, thanks for the link.
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Postby pitsilos » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:32 am

arrrgh most is in turkish
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Postby shahmaran » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:36 am

what do you mean biast?? you havent even read it, what do you want to see that coudl please you? plus its not even modern turkish but rather ottoman, so i cant help you either, however they do have english translations there, but the point is that it is there and it is available and it is reachable, plus Turkey is willing to cooperate with anyone who is up for investigation, and that was the core of this debate....


so guess who is NOT up for investigation?? :lol:
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Postby pitsilos » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:54 am

CHAPTER I
INTRODUCTION

A- OVERVIEW OF TURCO-ARMENIAN RELATIONS THROUGHOUT HISTORY
a- Reasons for the deportation and the measures taken
b- Taking and initiating the deportation decision
c- Regions where the deportation decision was implemented
d- Areas where Armenians were deported
e- Armenians not subject to deportation
f- Problems faced during deportation
g- Allocation of funds for the deportation
h- Condition of the Armenians’ immovable properties
i- The discontinuation of deportations
j- Armenians after deportation
k- Permission given to those Armenians wishing to return


nothing about crueltis to the armenians

but here

CHAPTER II
SUMMARY AND TRANSCRIPTION OF DOCUMENTS
1- The World War and the Turco-Armenian Question
2- The deportation of the Armenians of Dörtyol
3- Cruelties towards the Muslims and prisoners of war in the Caucasus
4- Russian and Armenian cruelties towards the Ottoman prisoners of war
5- Cruelties towards the Muslims and prisoners of war in the Caucasus


it only talks about cruelties to the muslims. are we to believe no cruelties took place on the armenians

i find this a bit on the bias, don't you? considering so many innocent people died from both sides.
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Postby shahmaran » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:37 am

Turkey claims that a lot of Armenians died in combat and during deportation...

Did you expect to find otherwise? It clearly and in a detailed manner explains how the deportations took place, which Armenians got deported from what areas and any other problems that occured during that period, involving Armenians, there are also many detailed examples of violence between Turkish and Armenian bandits attacking each others civilians and how these took place....

here is another example of the deportation:

"The deportation decision did not affect all Armenians. Those who met certain criteria were exempt from this decision. These were the sick and the blind, the Catholics[29] and the Protestants,[30] the soldiers and their families,[31] the civil servants, merchants,[32] some unskilled and skilled workers.

In addition to those serving as soldiers, officers, and in the medical corps of the Ottoman army, and their families, the Armenian officers employed in the branches of the Ottoman bank in the center and in the provinces, in the Régie, in the Public Debts[33] and in some consulates were exempt from deportation, taking into account their loyalty and good behavior. Those who were disloyal and those who were members of revolutionary committees were dismissed and deported.[34] orphans[35] and widowed women were also not deported and were settled in orphanages and villages where they were located. In addition, Armenians who were residing due to commercial and similar activities,[36] Armenian parliamentarians and their families[37] were not deported.

A later order requested that food and lodging be provided for those who were left orphaned during the deportations, and for those whose men folks had been deported or who were in the army.[38]"



so basically there is plenty to read here if you can be bothered and have an open mind about all this, theres not much to say really, i tottally aggree that a BIG independant investigation should take place for once and all to seal the deal on this subject, however i also believe that untill that happens, Turkey should hold every right to dismiss anyone claiming otherwise, i dont even care if they get taken to court for it because it is just not right, but judging from the way most people only attack Turkey for "violating freedom of speech" and not the EU countries who commit similar acts, we can see how the overall view has become very biast and agaisnt Turkey, therefore proving that the Armenian propaganda is working pretty well, so much for that lovely freedom of speech :?

oh and lets not also forget that EVEN Hrat Dink was absolutely against the French law for the Armenian genocide and he even suggested that he would go over there to protest and woud like to see them charge him for the crime, that would have been pretty humiliating actually, oh well, may he rest in peace...
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Postby T_C » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:18 am

Well at least theres something available from the Turkish archives. Where is the Armenian archives and why are they not open for ANYONE to see?!?

If you noticed, in each link there is a scan of the original document in jpeg format like the one below.

Image

This is WHY there needs to be a proper investigation on this subject. These documents are no use to you and me. Even when translated and written in normal alphabet its really hard to understand because theyre written in Ottoman language. They need to be studied by professionals who are familiar with the languange and people who can tell a fake document from the real ones.

Also the fact that these documents seem one sided is not the point, the point is the FACT that they COMPLETELY contradict the Armenian story. The FACT that what happened was the result of war and the FACT that Armenians played a big role in their own damned fate by backstabbing the people whos country they were in and the people they were living amongst. The FACT there couldnt of been 1.5 million dead and the FACT that Armenians have been lying from the beginning...and then some...

I'll post this pic again if you missed it the first time round

Image

Was that 4 "MILLION"???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As you can see it is the Armenians who have been behaving suspiciously NOT the Turks. Its them who have changed their stories and numbers countless amount of times. Its them whos archives are not open for inspection. Its them who are hiding NOT the Turks.

Plus its not one sided at all:

"Protecting the deported Armenians on the roads and punishing those who
attack them".


"That Armenians deported from Erzurum were attacked; that the necessary preventive measures be taken for their protection".


"Attacks by Dersim bandits on Armenians convoys".


"That allegations of a massacre be investigated and that preventive
measures implemented for Armenians are not implemented for the Christian population".


Theres much more in there that Ive seen but this is all I could find while quickly skimming through. The Ottoman empire had nothing to do with the Armenians that got killed, if half of these documents are real then its going to be really hard for the Armenians get themselves out of the shit they put themselves in. Turkish archives will and do prove that their stories are not correct and contradict the Armenian documants, they would need to be investigated further in any case. For the Armenians to say NO becayse "they know all they need to know" is unprofessional and just stupid and bad againts what theyre trying to get at. How can Turkey be expected to just admit and say sorry without an investigation?

The real culprits were those that were fucked off with these so called "neighbours" who were living in their country stabbing them in the back and aiding the enemy in order to get a piece of their country. I can imagine how many the Turks killed but the FACT is both was doing it to eachother maliciously. While knowing Turks I'm sure they killed ALOT of people but even the figures as to how many died is arguable so what is the point in presenting a 2 sided argument when with one, all the lies made by the other can slowly be taken out in order to get a more accurate understanding on what happened. And I have a gut feeling there'll be a lot more books left in the Turkish archives, while the Armienians will have a 92 years supplys worth of toilet paper.

Funny how there was an Armienan "genocide" at the time when there were Armenians who were in government and funny how they were still in government AFTER the "genocide".

84-"That Armenian members of parliament and their families not be expelled"


Can you imagine the embarassment they will face if they have been spinning lies? What will be the purpose of living for Armenians without the "genocide" claim?

That my friend shows you why they are so adamant on claiming "genocide" without a care in the world for an investigation.
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Postby pitsilos » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:08 am

Can you imagine the embarassment they will face if they have been spinning lies?

can you imagine if they are proven right?

The Armenian Genocide:

Dr. Martin Piege's Report

THE HORRORS OF ALEPPO

SEEN BY A GERMAN EYEWITNESS.



------------------------------------------------------------------------



A word to Germany's Accredited Representatives by Dr. Martin Niepage,

Higher Grade Teacher in the German Technical School at Aleppo



When I returned to Aleppo in September, 1915, from a three months'

holiday at Beirout, I heard with horror that a new phase of Armenian

massacres had begun which were far more terrible than the earlier

massacres under Abd-ul-Hamid, and which aimed at exterminating, root

and branch, the intelligent, industrious, and progressive Armenian

nation, and at transferring its property to Turkish hands.



Such monstrous news left me at first incredulous. I was told that, in

various quarters of Aleppo, there were lying masses of half-starved

people, the survivors of so-called "deportation convoys." In order, I

was told, to cover the extermination of the Armenian nation with a

political cloak, military reasons were being put forward, which were

said to make it necessary to drive the Armenians out of their native

seats, which had been theirs for 2,500 years, and to deport them to the

Arabian deserts. I was also told that individual Armenians bad lent

themselves to acts of espionage.



After I had informed myself about the facts and had made enquiries on

all sides, I came to the conclusion that all these accusations against

the Armenians were, in fact, based on trifling provocations, which were

taken as an excuse for slaughtering 10,000 innocents for one guilty

person, for the most savage outrages against women and children, and

for a campaign of starvation against the exiles which was intended to

exterminate the whole nation.



To test the conclusion derived from my information, I visited all the

places in the city where there were Armenians left behind by the

convoys. In dilapidated caravansaries (hans) I found quantities of

dead, many corpses being half-decomposed, and others, still living,

among them, who were soon to breathe their last. In other yards I found

quantities of sick and starving people whom no one was looking after.

In the neighbourhood of the German Technical School, at which I am

employed as a higher grade teacher, there were four such hans, with

seven or eight hundred exiles dying of starvation. We teachers and our

pupils had to pass by them every day. Every time we went out we saw

through the open windows their pitiful forms, emaciated and wrapped in

rags. In the mornings our school children, on their way through the

narrow streets, had to push past the two-wheeled ox-carts, on which

every day from eight to ten rigid corpses, without coffin or shroud,

were carried away, their arms and legs trailing out of the vehicle.



After I had shared this spectacle for several days I thought it my duty

to compose the following report :--







------------------------------------------------------------------------



"As teachers in the German Technical School at Aleppo, we permit

ourselves with all respect to make the following report :--



"We feel it our duty to draw attention to the fact that our educational

work will forfeit its moral basis and the esteem of the natives, if the

German Government is not in a position to put a stop to the brutality

with which the wives and children of slaughtered Armenians are being

treated here.



"Out of convoys which, when they left their homes on the Armenian

plateau, numbered from two to three thousand men) women and children,

only two or three hundred survivors arrive here in the south. The men

are slaughtered on the way: the women and girls, with the exception of

the old, the ugly and those who are still children, have been abused by

Turkish soldiers and officers and then carried away to Turkish and

Kurdish villages, where they have to accept Islam. They try to destroy

the remnant of the convoys by hunger and thirst. Even when they are

fording rivers, they do not allow those dying of thirst to drink. All

the nourishment they receive is a daily ration of a little meal

sprinkled over their hands, which they lick off greedily, and its only

effect is to protract their starvation.



"Opposite the German Technical School at Aleppo, in which we are

engaged in teaching, a mass of about four hundred emaciated forms, the

remnant of such convoys, is lying in one of the hans. There are about a

hundred children boys and girls) among tbem, from five to seven years

old. Most of them are suffering from typhoid and dysentery. When one

enters the yard, one has the impression of entering a mad-house. If one

brings them food, one notices that they have forgotten how to eat,

Their stomach, weakened by months of starvation, can no longer

assimilate nourisbment. If one gives them bread, they put it aside

indifferently. They just lie there quietly, waiting for death.



"Amid such surroundings, how are we teachers to read German Fairy

Stories with our children, or, indeed, the story of the Good Samaritan

in the Bible? How are we to make them decline and conjugate irrelevant

words, while round them in the yards adjoiniug the German Technical

School their starving fellow-countrymen are slowly succumbing? Under

such circumstances our educational work flies in the face of all true

morality and becomes a mockery of human sympathy.



"And what becomes of these poor people who have been driven in

thousands through Aleppo and the neighbourhood into the deserts,

reduced almost entirely, by this time, to women and children? They are

driven on and on from one place to another. The thousands shrink to

hundreds and the hundreds to tiny remnants, and even these remnants are

driven on till the last is dead. Then at last they have reached the

goal of their wandering, the 'New Homes assigned to the Armenians,' as

the newspapers phrase it.



"Ta'alim el aleman' ('the teaching of the Germans') is the simple

Turk's explanation to everyone who asks him about the originators of

these measures.



"The educated Moslems are convinced that, even though the German nation

discountenances such horrors, the German Government is taking no steps

to put a stop to them, out of consideration for its Turkish Ally.



"Mohammedans, too, of more sensitive feelings--Turks and Arabs alike--

shake their heads in disapproval and do not conceal their tears when

they see a convoy of exiles marching through the city, and Turkish

soldiers using cudgels upon women in advanced pregnancy and upon dying

people who can no longer drag themselves along. They cannot believe

that their Government has ordered these atrocities, and they hold the

Germans responsible for all such outrages, Germany being considered

during the war as Turkey's school-master in everything. Even the

mollahs in the mosques say that it was not the Sublime Porte but the

German officers who ordered the ill-treatrnent and destruction of the

Armenians.



"The things which have been passing here for months under everybody's

eyes will certainly remain as a stain on Germany's shield in the memory

of Orientals.



"In order not to be obliged to give up their faith in the character of

the Germans, which they have hitherto respected, many educated

Mohammedaris explain the situation to themselves as follows: 'The

German nation,' they say, 'probably knows nothing about the frightful

massacres which are on foot at the present time against the native

Christians in all parts of Turkey. Knowing the German love of truth,

how otherwise can we explain the articles we read in German newspapers,

which appear to know of nothing except that individual Armenians have

been deservedly shot by martial law as spies and traitors? Others again

say: 'Perhaps the German Government has had its hands tied by some

treaty defining its powers, or perhaps intervention is inopportune for

the moment.'



"I know for a fact that the Embassy at Constantinople has been informed

by the German Consulates of all that has been happening. As, however,

there has not been so far the least change in the system of

deportation, I feel myself compelled by conscience to make my present

report."





------------------------------------------------------------------------



At the time when I composed this report, the German Consul at Aleppo

was represented by his colleague from Alexandretta--Consul Hoffmann.

Consul Hoffmann informed me that the German Embassy had been advised in

detail about the events in the interior in repeated reports from the

Consulates at Alexandretta, Aleppo and Mosul. He told me that a report

of what I had seen with my own eyes would, however, be welcome as a

supplement to these official documents and as a description in detail.

He said he would convey my report to the Embassy at Constantinople by a

sure agency. I now worked out a report on the desired lines, giving an

exact description of the state of things in the han opposite our

school.



Consul Hoffmann wished to add some photographs which he had taken in

the han himself. The photographs displayed piles of corpses, among

which children still alive were crawling about.



In its revised form the report was signed by my colleague, Dr. Graeter

(higher grade teacher), and by Frau Marie Spiecker, as well as by

myself. The head of our institution, Director Huber, also placed his

name to it and added a few words in the following sense: "My colleague

Dr. Niepage's report is not at all exaggerated. For weeks we have been

living here in an atmosphere poisoned with sickness and the stench of

corpses. Only the hope of speedy relief makes it possible for us to

carry on our work."



The relief did not come. I then thought of resigning my post as higher

grade teacher in the Technical School, on the ground that it was

senseless and morally unjustifiable to be a representative of European

civilisation with the task of bringing moral and intellectual education

to a nation if, at the same time, one had to look on passively while

the Government of the country was abandoning one's pupils' fellow

countrymen to an agonising death by starvation.



Those around me, however, as well as the head of our institution,

Director Huber, dissuaded me from my intention. It was pointed out to

me that there was value in our continued presence in the country, as

eyewitnesses of what went on. Perhaps, it was suggested, our presence

might have some effect in making the Turks behave more humanely towards

their unfortunate victims, out of consideration for us Germans. I see

now that I have remained far too long a silent witness of all this

wickedness.



Our presence had no ameliorating effect whatever, and what we could do

personally came to little. Frau Spiecker, our brave, energetic

colleague, bought soap, and all the women and children in our

neighbourhood who were still alive--there were no men left--were washed

and cleansed from lice. Frau Spiecker set women to work to make soup

for those who could still assimilate nourishment. I, myself,

distributed two pails of tea and cheese and moistened bread among the

dying children every evening for six weeks; but when the Hunger-Typhus

or Spotted-Typhus spread through the city from these charnel houses,

six of us succumbed to it and had to give up our relief work. Indeed,

for the exiles who came to Aleppo, help was really useless. We could

only afford those doomed to death a few slight alleviations of their

death agony.



What we saw with our own eyes here in Aleppo was really only the last

scene in the great tragedy of the extermination of the Armenians. It

was only a minute fraction of the horrible drama that was being played

out simultaneously in all the other provinces of Turkey. Many more

appalling things were reported by the engineers of the Bagdad Railway,

when they came back from their work on the section under construction,

or by German travellers who met the convoys of exiles on their

journeys. Many of these gentlemen had seen such appalling sights that

they could eat nothing for days.



One of them, Herr Greif, of Aleppo, reported corpses of violated women

lying about naked in heaps on the railway embankment at Tell-Abiad and

Ras-el-Ain. Another, Herr Spiecker, of Aleppo, had seen Turks tie

Armenian men ogether. fire several volleys of small shot with fowling-

pieces into the human mass, and go off laughing while their victims

slowly perished in frightful convulsions. Other men had their hands

tied behind their back and were rolled down steep cliffs. Women were

standing below, who slashed those who had rolled down with knives until

they were dead. A Protestant pastor who, two years before, had given a

very warm welcome to my colleague, Doctor Graeter, when he was passing

through his village, had his finger nails torn out.



The German Consul from Mosul related, in my presence, at the German

club at Aleppo that, in many places on the road from Mosul to Aleppo,

he had seen children's hands lying hacked off in such numbers that one

could have paved the road with them. In the German hospital at Ourfa

there was a little girl who had had both her hands hacked off.



In an Arab village on the way to Aleppo Herr Holstein, the German

Consil from Mosul, saw shallow graves with freshly-buried Armenian

corpses. The Arabs of the village declared that they had killed these

Armenians by the Government's orders. One asserted prondly that he

personally had killed eight.



In many Christian houses in Aleppo I found Armenian girls bidden who by

some chance had escaped death; either they bad been left lying

exhausted and had been taken for dead when their companions had been

driven on, or, in other cases, Europeans had found an opportunity to

buy the poor creatures for a few marks from the last Turkish soldier

who had violated them. All these girls showed symptoms of mental

derangement; many of them had had to watch the Turks cut their parents'

throats. I know poor things who have not had a single word coaxed out

of them for months, and not a smile to this moment. A girl about

fourteen years old was given shelter by Herr Krause, Dept Manager for

the Bagdad Railway at Aleppo. The girl bad been so many times ravished

by Turkish soldiers in one night that she had completely lost her

reason. I saw her tossing on her pillow in delirium with burning lips,

and could hardly get water down her throat.



A German I know saw hundreds of Christian peasant women who were

compelled, near Ourfa, to strip naked by the Turkish soldiers. For the

amusement of the soldiers they had to drag themselves through the

desert in this condition for days together in a temperature of 40

degrees Centigrade, until their skins were completely scorched. Another

witness saw a Turk tear a child out of its Armenian mother's womb and

hurl it against the wall.



There are other occurrences, worse than these few examples which I give

here, recorded in the numerous reports which have been sent in to the

Embassy from the German Consulates at Alexandretta, Aleppo and Mosul.

The Consuls are of opinion that, so far, probably about one million

Armenians have perished in the massacres of the last few months. Of

this number, one must reckon that at least half are women and children

who have either been murdered or have succumbed to starvation.



It is a duty of conscience to bring these things into publicity, and,

although the Turkish Government, in destroying the Armenian nation, may

only be pursuing objects of internal policy, the way this policy is

being carried out has many of the characteristics of a general

persecution of Christians.



All the tens of thousands of girls and women who have been carried off

into Turkish harems, and the masses of children who have been collected

by the Government and distributed among the Turks and Kurds, are lost

to Christendom, and have to accept Islam. The abusive epithet "giaour"

is now heard once again by German ears.



At Adana I saw a crowd of Armenian orphans marching through the streets

under a guard of Turkish soldiers; their parents have been slaughtered

and the children have to become Mohammedans. Even here there have been

cases in which adult Armenians were able to save their lives by

readiness to accept Islam. Sometimes, however, the Turkish officials

first made the Christians present a petition to be received into the

communion of Islam, and then answered very grandly, in order to throw

dust in the eyes of Europeans, that religion is not a thing to play

with. These officials preferred to have the petitioners killed. Men

like Talaat Bey and Enver Pasha, when prominent Armenians brought them

presents, often tempered their thanks with the remark that they would

have been still better pleased if the Armenian givers had made their

presents as Mohammedans. A newspaper reporter was told by one of these

gentlemen "Certainly we are now punishing many innocent people as well.

But we have to guard ourselves even against those who may one day

become guilty." On such grounds Turkish statesmen justify the wholesale

slaughter of defenceless women and children. A German Catholic

ecclesiastic reported that Enver Pasha declared, in the presence of

Monsignore Dolci, the Papal Envoy at Constantinople, that he would not

rest so long as a single Armenian remained alive.



The object of the deportations is the extermination of the whole

Armenian nation. This purpose is also proved by the tact that the

Turkish Government declines all assistance from Missionaries, Sisters

of Mercy and European residents in the country, and systematically

tries to stop their work. A Swiss engineer was to have been brought

before a court-martial because he had distributed bread in Anatolia to

the starving Armenian women and children in a convoy of exiles. The

Government has not hesitated even to deport Armenian pupils and

teachers from the German schools at Adana and Aleppo, and Armenian

children from the German orphanages, without regard to all the efforts

of the Consuls and the heads of the institutions involved. The

Government also rejected the American Government's offer to take the

exiles to America on American ships and at America's expense.



The opinion of our German Consuls and of many foreigners resident in

the country about the Armenian massacres will some day become known

through their report I can say nothing about the verdict of the German

officers in Turkey. I often noticed, when in their company, an ominous

silence or a convulsive effort to change the subject when any German of

warm sympathies and independent judgment began to speak about the

Armenians frightful sufferings.



When Field-Marshal von der Goltz was travelling to Bagdad and had to

cross the Euphrates at Djerablus, there was a large encampment of half-

starved Armenian exiles there. Just before the Field-Marshal's arrival,

so I was told at Djerablus, these unhappy people, the sick and dying

with the rest, were driven under the whip several kilometres away over

the nearest hills. When von der Goltz passed through, there were no

traces left of the repulsive spectacle; but when I visited the place

shortly afterwards with some of my colleagues, we found corpses of men,

women and children still lying in out-of-the-way places, and fragments

of clothes, skulls and bones which had been partly stripped of the

flesh by jackals and birds of prey



The author of the present report considers it out of the question that,

if the German Government is seriously determined to stem the tide of

destruction even at this eleventh hour, it would find it impossible to

bring the Turkish Government to reason. If the Turks are really so well

inclined to us Germans as people say, cannot they have it pointed out

to them how seriously they compromise us before the whole civilised

world, if we, as their Allies, have to look on passively while our

fellow-Christians in Turkey are slaughtered in their hundreds of

thousands, their women and daughters violated, their children brought

up as Mohammedans? Cannot the Turks be made to understand that their

barbarities are reckoned to our account, and that we Germans will be

accused either of criminal complicity or of contemptible weakness, if

we shut our eyes to the frightful horrors which this war has produced,

and seek to pass over in silence facts which are already notorious all

over the world? If the Turks are really as intelligent as is said,

should it be impossible to convince them that, in exterminating the

Christian nations in Turkey, they are destroying the productive factors

and the intermediaries of European trade and general civilisation? If

the Turks are as far-sighted as is said, can they blind themselves to

the danger that, when the civilised States of Europe have taken

cognisance of what has been happening in Turkey during the War, they

may be driven to the conclusion that Turkey has forfeited the right to

govern herself and has destroyed once for all any belief in her

tolerance and capacity for civilisation? Will not the German Government

be standing for what is best in Turkey's own interest, if it hinders

Turkey from mining herself morally and economically?



In this report I hope to reach the Government's ear through the

accredited representatives of the German nation.



When the Reichstag sits in Committee, these things must no longer be

passed over, however painful they are. Nothing could put us more to

shame than the erection at Constantinople of a Turco-German palace of

friendship at huge expense, while we are not in a position to shield

our fellow-Christians from barbarities unparalleled even in the

bloodstained history of Turkey. Would not the funds collected be better

spent in building orphanages for the innocent victims of Turkey's

barbarities?



After the massacres of 1909 a kind of reconciliation banquet was held

at Adana, in which the heads of the Armenian clergy took part as well

as high Turkish officials. The German Consul, Buge, who was present,

related that an Armenian ecclesiastic got up and said in his speech "It

is true that we Armenians have lost much in these days of massacre--our

men, our women, our children and our goods. But you Turks have lost

more; you have lost your honour."



If we persist in treating the massacres of Christians as Turkey's

internal affair, which is not important for us except as making us sure

of the Turks' friendship, then we must change the whole orientation of

our German culture policy. We must stop sending German teachers to

Turkey, and we teachers must give up telling our pupils in Turkey about

German poets and philosophers, German culture and German ideals to say

nothing of German Christianity.



Three years ago I was sent by the Foreign Office as higher grade

teacher to the German Technical School at Aleppo. The Prussian

Provincial School Board at Magdeburg specially enjoined upon me, when I

went out, to show myself worthy of the confidence reposed in me in the

grant of furlough to take up this educational post at Aleppo. I should

not be fulfilling my duty as a German official and an accredited

representative of German culture, if I consented to keep silence in

face of the atrocities of which I was a witness, or to look on.

passively while the pupils entrusted to me were driven out to die of

starvation in the desert.



If anyone enquires into the motives which induced the Young Turkish

Government to decree and carry out these frightful measures against the

Armenians, one might give the following explanation :--



The Young Turk has the European ideal of a united national state always

floating before his eyes. He hopes to turkify the non-Turkish

Mohammedan races--Kurds, Persians, Arabs, and so on -- by

administrative methods and through Turkish education, reinforced by an

appeal to their common interests as Mohammedans. The Christian nations--

Armenians, Syrians and Greeks--alarm him by their cultural and economic

superiority, and he sees in their religion an obstacle to turkifying

them by peaceful means. They have, therefore, to be exterminated or

converted to Mohammedanism by force. The Turks do not suspect that, in

doing this, they are sawing off the branch on which they are sitting

themselves. Who is to bring progress to Turkey if not the Greeks,

Armenians and Syrians, who constitute more than a quarter of the

population of the Empire?



The Turks, the least gifted of all the races living in Turkey, are

themselves only a minority of the population, and are still far behind

even the Arabs in civilisation. Where is there any Turkish trade,

Turkish handicraft, Turkish manufacture, Turkish art, Turkish science?

Even their law, religion and language, so far as it can be given

literary form, have been borrowed from the conquered Arabs.



We teachers who have been teaching Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, Turks and

Jews in German schools in Turkey for years, can only declare that the

pure Turks are the most unwilling and incapable of all our pupils.

When, for once in a way, a Turk achieves something, in nine cases out

of ten one can be certain that one is dealing with a Circassian, an

Albanian, or a Turk with Bulgarian blood in his veins. From my personal

experience I can only prophesy that the Turks proper will never achieve

anything in trade, manufacture or science.



We are told now in German newspapers of the Turks' hunger for education

and of how they are thronging eagerly to learn German. There are even

reports of language courses for adults which have been started in

Turkey. They are certainly started, but with what results? They go on

to tell one of a language course at a Technical School which opened

with twelve Turkish teachers as pupils. The anthor of this story

forgets, however, to add that, after four lessons, only six pupils put

in an appearance; after five lessons, five; after six lessons four,

and, after seven lessons. only three, so that after eight lessons the

course came to an end, through the laziness of the pupils, before it

had properly begun. If the pupils had been Armenians they would have

persevered until the end of the school year, learnt patiently, and come

away with a respectable mastery of the German language.



What is Germany's duty and, indeed, the duty of every civilised

Christian nation in face of the Armenian massacres? We must try every

means of saving the half million of Armenian women and children who may

still be alive in Turkey to-day, and who are abandoned to death by

starvation, from an end which would be a disgrace to the whole

civilised world. The hundreds of thousands of deported women and

children who have been left lying on the borders of the Mesopotamian

desert, and on the roads leading thither, can only maintain their

miserable existence a short time longer. How long can people really

support life by picking grains of corn out of horse-dung and depending

for the rest upon grass? Months of insufficient nourishment and the

prevailing dysentery will have brought countless numbers into a state

past help. But at Konia a few thousand Armenians are still aiive--

educated people from Constantinople, who were in easy circumstances

before their deportation, doctors, writers, merchants--and these could

still be helped before they too succumb to the fate that threatens all.

There are 1,500 Armenians in good health--men, women and children,

including grandmothers sixty years old and many children of six and

seven-who are still at work on a section of the Bagdad Railway between

Eiran and Entilli, near the big tunnel, breaking stones and shovelling

earth. For the moment they are being looked after by Herr Morf,

Superintendent Engineer of the Bagdad Railway; but the Turkish

Government has registered their names too. As soon as their work is

finished, as it will be in perhaps two or three months' time from now,

and they are no longer wanted, "new homes will be assigned to them,"--

that is, the men will be taken off and slaughtered4 the pretty women

and girls will find their way into harems, the remainder will be driven

hither and thither without food through the desert until all is over.



The Armenian nation has a claim to German help. When Armenian massacres

threatened to break out in Cilicia several years ago, a German warship

appeared off Mersina. The Commander called on the Armenian Katholikos

at Adana and assured him that, so long as Germany had any influence in

Turkey, massacres like those under Abd-ul-Hamid would be impossible.

The same assurance was given by the German Ambassador, von Wangenheim,

to the Armenian Patriarch and to the President of the Armenian National

Council in an interview last April. [1915]



Even apart from our common duty as Christians, we Germans are under a

special obligation to stop the complete extermination of the half-

million Armenian Christians who still survive. We are Turkey's allies

and, after the elimination of the French, English and Russians, we are

the only foreigners who have any say in Turkish affairs. We may

indignantly refute the lies of our enemies abroad, who say that the

massacres have been organised by German Consuls. We shall not be able

to dissipate the Turkish nation's conviction that the Armenian

massacres were ordered by Germany, unless energetic steps are at last

taken by German diplomatists and officers. And even if we cleared

ourselves of everything but the one reproach that our timidity and

weakness in dealing with our ally had prevented us from saving half a

million women and children from slaughter or death by starvation, the

image of the German War would be disfigured for all time in the mirror

of history by a hideous feature.



It is utterly erroneous to think that the Turkish Government will

refrain of its own accord even from the destruction of the women and

children, unless the strongest pressure is exercised by the German

Government. Only just before I left Aleppo last May, [1916] the crowds

of exiles encamped at Ras-el-Ain on The Bagdad Railway, estimated at

20,000 women and children, were slaughtered to the last one.



1975 Reprint of Dr. Martin Niepage's original 1917 report.

(New Age Publishers of Plandome, NY is the source of my 1975 reprint)

http://www.cilicia.com/armo10b_niepage.html


yeah i know its all propaganda, the armenians weren't really slaughtered, but the tcs were. fucking hell.
pitsilos
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