Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

The other side of the coin....

Applying the principles of history, we can see that what occurred was in fact a long history of imperialism, nationalist revolt and ethnic conflict.

The result was horrible mortality on all sides. There is an explainable, understandable history of a two-sided conflict. It was not genocide. Throughout that history, both sides killed and were killed. It was not genocide.

Much archival evidence shows Ottoman government concern that Armenians survive. Also, it must be said that much evidence shows poor planning, government weakness and in some places criminal acts and negligence. Some officials were murderous, but a sincere effort was made to punish them. It was not genocide.

The majority of those who were deported survived, even though those Armenians were completely at the mercy of the Ottomans. It was not genocide.

The Armenians most under Ottoman control, the Armenian residents of Istanbul, Izmir, Edirne and other regions of greatest governmental power were neither deported not attacked. It was not genocide.

Why are the Turks accused of a hideous crime they did not commit? The answer is both emotional and political. Many Armenians feel in their hearts that Turks were guilty. They have only heard of the deaths of their ancestors, not the deaths of the Turks. They have been told only a small part of a complicated story for so long that they believe it to be unquestionable truth. Their anger is understandable. The beliefs of those in Europe and America who have never heard the truth, which sadly is the majority, are also understandable. It is the actions of those who use the claim of genocide for nationalist political motives that are inexcusable.

Does any rational analyst deny that the ultimate intent of the Armenian nationalists is to first gain "reparations," then claim Eastern Anatolia as their own?

Finally, what is to be done? As might be expected from all I have said here today, I believe the only answer to false allegations of genocide is to study and proclaim the truths of history. Political actions such as the resolution recently passed by the French Parliament naturally and properly draw corresponding political actions from Turks, but political actions will never convince the world that Turks did not commit genocide. What is needed to convince the world that Turks did not commit genocide? What is needed to convince the world is a great increase in scholarship. Archives must remain open and be easy to use for both Turks and foreigners. Graduate students should be encouraged to study the Armenian question. No student's advisers should tell him to avoid this subject because it is "too political," something I have heard in America and, unfortunately, in Turkey as well.

I suggest, as I have suggested before, that the Turkish Republic propose to the Armenian Republic that a joint commission be established, its members selected by scholarly academies in both countries. All archives should be opened to the commission -- not only the Ottoman Archives, but the archives of Armenia and of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. (The call is often made for the Turkish Archives to be opened completely. It is time to demand that Armenians do likewise.) I have been told that the Armenians will never agree to this, but how can anyone know unless they try? In any case, refusal to fairly and honestly consider this question would in itself be evidence that the accusations against the Turks are political, not scholarly.

Whether or not such a commission is ever named, the study of the Armenian question must be continued. This is true not only because it is always right to discover accurate history. It is true because honor demands it. Honor is a word that is not often heard today, but a concept of honor is nonetheless sorely needed. I have been told by many that the Turks should adopt a political strategy to deal with the Armenian problem. This strategy would have the Turkish government lie about the past for present political gain.

The government would state that the Ottomans committed genocide, but that modern Turkey cannot be blamed because it is a different government. This, I have been told, would cause the world to think more kindly of the Turks. I do not believe this ultimately would satisfy anyone. I believe that calls for reparations and land would quickly follow such a statement. But that is not the reason to reject such easy political lies. They should be rejected purely because they are wrong. Even if the lies would bring great gains, they should be rejected because they are wrong. I believe the Turks are still men and women of honor. They know that it can never be honorable to accept lies told of their ancestors, no matter the benefits. I also believe that someday, perhaps soon, perhaps far in the future, the truth will be recognized by the world. I believe that the accurate study of history and the honor of the Turks will bring this to pass.

[Kikapu]

You are unbelievable just go and look over your colourful posts where have tried to ridicule and degrade Turkeys stance over the Armenian issue, you are a Turk hater through and through and this is very obvious to everyone. .

Since you claim to be a "proud Turkish Cypriot", why do you care what anyone says that happened between Turkey and Armenia, or don't you think you have enough on your plate, to just deal with the Cyprus issues.

This is Turkey's and Armenians problem. As if, by calling it "Genocide", it will change anything for either side. Germany committed the "Holocaust", but they don't hide from it. They are not happy about their past, but do not run away from it either. Nations are more respected admitting wrong doings from their past , than those who try to deny it.

They are "big boys", so I let them work it out themselves.

[shahmaran]

this is just it man, if Turkey doesnt think they have done it and if the world is soly acting up on the Armenian propaganda and lobys (just likee the GCs) then Turkey has already been put into a very unfair position, and IF Turkey has already suggested that the historians should investigate, what more do you want?! if France holds the right to punish anyone who denys the genocide without any real proof then so does Turkey hold the right to punish anyone who blames her for genocide without any proof, what is the differenec? because they are Turks and they MUST be dodgy?! what have you got to proove that Turkey is not open for investigations? you are so sure lets see you evidence....

here pitsilos just very briefly somethings i found with a quick search....


http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/20 ... 717af.html

http://www.armenian-genocide-lie.com/ar ... logue-call

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1892412,00.html

http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=2048

http://www.bedribaykam.com/indexeng.php ... 21&arsiv=1

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/CH ... 2.HTM#%206

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/ ... consistent

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=32837

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/c ... 0105.shtml

and finally just to refresh your memory on the case incase you have started to "forget" things...or maybe you just choose not to see because it suits your anti-turk views, and ofcourse DEFINATELY not brainwashed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6045182.stm


so i would appreciate if you take the time to read it as i have taken the time to answer you and come back with evidence to support your claims...

shahmaran, i already said the french are in the wrong in shuting down freedom of speech.

now i just clicked on one link and read only one.
this one
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,1892412,00.html
now this article does not offer any proof or evidense at all, it only says less people were killed from a common cold.

i agree with tukey's stand on this one. france can't demand the high ground when it expects different from turkey.

are you sure you know what proof is mate. something directly out of the archives. have you got anything?

turkey doesn't need armenia to open the archives. she can do all that her self rather than go around kissing yanking ass mate. its embarrasing, when you claim you have archives and proof and you prefer to kiss ass instead.

pistilos your argument is geting weaker by the minute MATE, i see you have not taken the time to read anything and you are very happily spilling your ignorance one more time...so if it doesnt aggree with you its either PROPAGANDA or NOT WORTH READING or IGNORANCE or BULLSHIT FROM A YOUNG PERSON....nice

im sorry but you only read 1 and you still talk?! try the others they are all about different points, if you want something from the Ottoman archives them im sorry but i cant help you, however i still think this is more than what you had to offer as an "argument" and still have the face to desperately hold on to a few minor points you made which was hardly relevant...

Armenia does NOT allow the questioning of the genocide, as far as they are concerned IT HAS HAPPENED and anyone who doubts it can go to jail, as people have when they tried to investigate the case in Armenia, thats why they reject Turkeys offers for investigation by saying there is nothing to investigate, so either read the rest of the sites or just cut the crap MATE!

...oh and Americas self interest based stance on the matter hardly changes the truth, so Gul kissing US ass holds no weight for the actual truth of the genocide, those are just the typical greedy yanky assholes who are ready to do anything for a bit of oil...

[Viewpoint]

You are unbelievable just go and look over your colourful posts where have tried to ridicule and degrade Turkeys stance over the Armenian issue, you are a Turk hater through and through and this is very obvious to everyone. .

Since you claim to be a "proud Turkish Cypriot", why do you care what anyone says that happened between Turkey and Armenia, or don't you think you have enough on your plate, to just deal with the Cyprus issues.

This is Turkey's and Armenians problem. As if, by calling it "Genocide", it will change anything for either side. Germany committed the "Holocaust", but they don't hide from it. They are not happy about their past, but do not run away from it either. Nations are more respected admitting wrong doings from their past , than those who try to deny it.

They are "big boys", so I let them work it out themselves.

Firstly I did not start this thread or am I the one who constantly brings up the Armenian issue to prove and promote Turkey as the tyrrant they want to believe it is, just like all your and Pits conspiracy theories its the GCs. So ask them the same question and you will have your answer as why it is being discussed. All I am trying to convey is that Turkey should be given a fair trial and not convicted without the opportunity to defend herself, woudl you admit to something you did not do if you were falsely accused?. Plus the fact that after so many years ask yourself what do the Armenians want? Compensation? or a slice of Turkey? for these prizes and even far less countries have been know to weave and manipulate history to suit their aims.

On this note we can compare GCs with Turks and the TCs with them Armenians, how does that sound? Although TCs still survive even today we claim GCs tired to anniahalate us, they tried to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing if the Armenians can claim this then so can we.


The following quote says a lot and also reveals why people like pits argue without hearing all the evidence that Turkey is guilty no matter what;

Does any rational analyst deny that the ultimate intent of the Armenian nationalists is to first gain "reparations," then claim Eastern Anatolia as their own?

So can you not understand the dangers involved?, you should because if you feel the Armenians are intitled to have a piece of Turkey then you should have no problems with the co-owners TCs having their own separate state.

[T_C]

I find it pathetic that they dont want an investigation, and although you may say "why does Turkey need Armenia to hold its hand". It's because if Turkey does it on it's own it will be seen as one sided, labelled "propaganda" and will have no significance because it will just be the Turkish side of the story, nothing more.

On the other hand a joint investigation will be more than just the Turkish side of the story, it will be an investigation to find the truth and not an effort to deny or counter the other sides story.

They think theyre smart but this is the only reason they dont want it. They will not be able to deny or criticise the outcome so whats the point? They know it wont do them any favours, this just shows you their intentions, it has nothing to do with "genocide" they're just a bunch of freeloaders who have made multi billions with their "genocide" claims.

If Turkey goes ahead on its own then then it wont make any difference to what they or you think. A joint investigation is the only way to uncover the truth without argument.

[shahmaran]

I dont think they can afford any real doubts to arise and spread around the globe, on their claims and on the amount of propaganda they have invested on. I mean think about how much noise they have made for this claim over the years, all the terrorist attacks commited against the Turks by the Armenians in Turkey and outside Turkey, and immagine what would happen if an investigation did take place to only find that they were nothing but a bunch of separatist, it would never happen...

They have put themselves, and every other nation that has supported and recognized their bullshit, into a situation were nothing but the ABSOLUTE recognition of the "genocide" would be acceptable. No wonder they cant have anybody investigating this matter in their own country, bunch of fucking crooks i tell you, and as long as blind people like Miltiades, Pistilos and Pyr exist, they will succesfully continue to spread their unproven lies in order to make life difficult for the Turks, which as a matter of fact, serves the GCs very well too, so i cant say im suprised...and on another note, the sudden vicious re-apperance of these claims have also served the people in the EU VERY well, specially when Turkey is trying to join them and they need throw Turkey everything they can get their hands on, so yeah thats another irony

[Pyrpolizer]

You are a hypocrite of the worst kind, why don't you split Cyprus up we are much closer than to this reality then Turkey ever will be, your posts are full of venom and hatred towards a nation that fucked your arse inside out so that's understandable, this is why you continuously spew a load of biased and one sided garbage which you want to believe because anything anti Turkey must be right, well let them prove their claims, shah has told you over and over again Turkey has said lets hand this over to the historian experts yet Armenia has not risen to this challenge and you cannot debate this on your own as this has been attempted before and the anti Turkey people like yourself rushed to label it propaganda. Like you the Armenians continue to feed the world with crap and lies as they to were once fucked by the Ottomans for stabbing them in the back and siding with the Russians. The issue has also been debated in Istanbul but the Turkish people quite rightly started to protest against the injustice that Turkey is being held liable for happened during the Ottoman era. The whole aim of your deluded campaign and may others is to see Turkey "split into pieces" well you moron it ain't gonna happen so get off your high horse and try to extract the fluid from out where the sun don't shine cause you are f----d.

Surprise surprise.

VP speaks Turkish!

[shahmaran]

Pyr my son!!

Cut the crap and stay on the subject

[Kikapu]

Firstly I did not start this thread or am I the one who constantly brings up the Armenian issue to prove and promote Turkey as the tyrrant they want to believe it is, just like all your and Pits conspiracy theories its the GCs. So ask them the same question and you will have your answer as why it is being discussed. All I am trying to convey is that Turkey should be given a fair trial and not convicted without the opportunity to defend herself, woudl you admit to something you did not do if you were falsely accused?. Plus the fact that after so many years ask yourself what do the Armenians want? Compensation? or a slice of Turkey? for these prizes and even far less countries have been know to weave and manipulate history to suit their aims.

On this note we can compare GCs with Turks and the TCs with them Armenians, how does that sound? Although TCs still survive even today we claim GCs tired to anniahalate us, they tried to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing if the Armenians can claim this then so can we.


The following quote says a lot and also reveals why people like pits argue without hearing all the evidence that Turkey is guilty no matter what;

Does any rational analyst deny that the ultimate intent of the Armenian nationalists is to first gain "reparations," then claim Eastern Anatolia as their own?

So can you not understand the dangers involved?, you should because if you feel the Armenians are intitled to have a piece of Turkey then you should have no problems with the co-owners TCs having their own separate state.

All this does not change anything. If genocide took place, lets just say, I don't see how any part of Turkey will be taken away. Germany had the Holocaust, and the only reason part of Germany ( East Germany) was taken away by the Russians, had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Even after all that, the country united after 50 years of complete separation...a lesson for us perhaps.

You're right, I also do not see why the GC's want to argue on the Turkey-Armenia Genocide issues. There's nothing to be gained, regarding the Cyprus issue. If Turkey is embarrassed to be labelled with the Genocide of the Armenians, that's as far as it will go, it will not have an effect on the Cyprus issue as far as solving it. It may in fact make matters worse.

[Pyrpolizer]

In that case no one can confirm and refute that the Ottomans instigated genocide, so why all the fuss, Turkeys problem is not with numbers but the fact that it was not genocide but people who died during a war.

Your figure of 6000 GCs dead is also debatable, there is always a counter argument so trying to get the Turkish people to admit genocide in this fashion is not correct and will never happen it is no more than a ploy to weaken Turkey.

In that case no one can confirm??
What are you talking about man? When Mr Andranik tells you his father is THE ONLY surviver from a family of 40 when his own father described him exactly how the other 39 died then no one can confrm it? When The Armenians were 2.5 million and after summing their survived after the holocaust there were only 1 million, nobody can confirm that 1.5 million were killed?

Turkeys problem is both with numbers i.e they claim only 300,000 died and the conditions they died. You cannot seriously hide behind the claim that the died during war? What war, the one Turkey declared against innocent civilians? Was it just an accidental death of a few civilians just because the bomb missed the target?
Do you want me to start posting photographs here to see the skeleton faces of the 1.5 million Armenians who were lead to their death?

And thank you for questioning the number of GC dead during the 1974.This would be exactly the outcome if we were to accept a committee of historians to examine if the GCs suffered genocide or not. They would never agree.

HOWEVER THE FACTS ARE THERE.

1.5 million people man, can you get it into your thick scull, 1.5 million people! Not even the atomic bombs did not kill so many people. And you have the nerve to even question it? Go to France, question it there. Civiliced people accept their wrong doings and ask for apology. Same like what the Germans did…