Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I don't believe we are heading for partition,I believe we are already there. Whichever way I look at it I can't see how we will ever get out of this mess in one piece,if we are not prepared to get over the past and objectively analyse where both communities have gone wrong.

It does not help us one bit talking about what might have happened back in the 16th century.I was watching a documentary on Islam the other night,and at one point they were talking about the crusades.How they ransacked Jerusalem and killed every living thing they could find simply because they were Muslims.They reported back to one of the kings or emperors that their horses were swimming upto their necks in Muslim blood!

This was how things were done in our glorious history,people,and we should not throw stones because we all live in glass houses. We should wory about how in our recent past (say from the 1st WW) we were infected with the nationalism and chauvinism virus intentionally by our so-called protectors and motherlands,and were stopped from becoming one nation and one people simply because that was not in the interests of those who thought they were better than us poor Cypriots.

We should realise that as Cypriots we have a responsibility to each other and above all a responsibility to our country,to get over our big and little hatreds and help each other to reunite our Cyprus.We are still playing into the hands of those who have sown the seeds of fear,hatred and division between us...

[eracles]

100% agree Birkibrisli. There is no way out of this unless the people in Cyprus demand to be together. Unfortunatley there's no shortage of ignorant, motherland-babys.

[Kikapu]

a level playing field.

..a level playing field = PARTITION.

Not necessarily, you have an airport we have one, you have a sea port we have one, you have no army we have no army, you have a postal address we have one, you have EU reps we have them as well and so on, nothing more nothing less a level playing field....whats stopping you?

Be careful how you use the word "you" and "we" to me.....I'm trying to be respectful.!!

As for everything else you have written, this would all make perfect sense in a 2 state 1 country solution, but until then, one can take all you have written, and run with it, with a Partition also. As long as this possibility of a Partition exists, I can't see the above happening.

Perhaps a new approach is needed for us all to get, on what you have written.

What you subconsiously have problems with is accepting that TCs are equals and that for 2 states to survive we both need airports and schools and workers and less settlers/immigrants, no army, return of refugees etc. Do you now understand what a level playing field is? The desire of the GCs is to have us depend on them for exporting our goods or even to fly abroad wont work, this cannot be forced and appears to be a way of dominating the TCs which they will never accept..

VP,

I do not have a "subconscious problems", so let me tell you, what I would consider a good "levelling the playing field " would look like, once both communities agree on a 2 state 1 country solution.

1. Open up Ercan and Famagusta port, under the authorization of the RoC, but operated by the TC's, directly to outside world.
2. Dismantle all the crossings from one side to the other, so that there is a freedom of movement by everyone, without having to show an ID.
3. Remove 4,000 Turkish Troops immediately, and further 4,000 a year for the next 10 years.
4. Train 1,000 strong TC National Guards a year, for the next 10 years.
5. Gradually eliminate the whole "Green Line" over the next 10 years.
6. Allow all the settlers who are married to a TC, to become Cypriot Citizens. The rest of the settlers, to be given a Residency ID Cards, to be determined, what should become of them at later date.
7. All GC's and TC's properties to be returned to them over 10 years. Where that may not be possible, due to public construction or roads have been built, to be compensated at the today's price.
8. All settlers and GC refugees to be removed from all land belonging to others, over 10 years. Government land should be used to house these people being displaced, over 10 years.
9. 2 states in 1 country to agree on their "state lines" to each other.
10. Each state to have their own flag, but cannot be a Turkish or Greek flag. It could be almost the same, but not. Each state will be able to fly 3 flags, Cyprus, State, and the EU.
11. After 5 years, a new Constitution is drawn up, under a Federal System, goes into effect, at the end of 10 years.
12. After the Federal Constitution is drawn up, then each state get to draw up their own Constitution, but cannot override Federal rules, on "Principles of Democracy".
13. Apply "Kifeas's Plan" to the new Government, with the 80%-20% ratio. ( I do not have "Kifeas's Plan" at ready, but perhaps someone can post it)
14. At the end of 10 years, we have a "level playing field" with 2 states in 1 country established.
15. No regular Army for either side, but only Part Time National Guards, keeping their weapons at home.

I could go on and on on other matters to be done, but this should give you something to think about, how to create a "LEVEL PLAYING FIELD" without creating a Partition,"unintentionally". This will give the TC's 10 years to reach the level par with the GC economically, with the help from any "International Re- Unifying Donor Conferences", to help all Cypriots, to correct the mistakes of the past. Lets not forget also the funds from any OIL, that may be pumped into the Cypriot Economy. We (TC'S) get to have our own state, and control our own economy, and schools, and local Government, although everyone who lives within either state, does have the right to run for office and vote for whom they want, within that state, to represent them, in the 100 seat Government, in NICOSIA:


"Welcome to the Unites States of Cyprus" is what will read, at any "Port of Entry" into Cyprus.

[pitsilos]

kikapu you are a visionary and i congratulate you for it.

i take my hat off to you mate.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu great try have to strat by acknowledging that, let go through the points one by and have other to contribute as well.

1. Open up Ercan and Famagusta port, under the authorization of the RoC, but operated by the TC's, directly to outside world.

The idea I agree with in principle but the only problem for me is that the "RoC" is run totally by the GCs so in effect you are placing it under their control are you not? do you see any problems arising?

2. Dismantle all the crossings from one side to the other, so that there is a freedom of movement by everyone, without having to show an ID.

Agreed

3. Remove 4,000 Turkish Troops immediately, and further 4,000 a year for the next 10 years.

What about the GC guard? I would rather get rid of both.

4. Train 1,000 strong TC National Guards a year, for the next 10 years.

I disagree I dont want any army.

5. Gradually eliminate the whole "Green Line" over the next 10 years.

Think you covered that in point 2

6. Allow all the settlers who are married to a TC, to become Cypriot Citizens. The rest of the settlers, to be given a Residency ID Cards, to be determined, what should become of them at later date.

They could be assessed according to EU norms, those who settled here more than 10 years ago shoul not go back they should be allowed to stay under a special status. The GC will also to put their Pontians in the same catagory.

7. All GC's and TC's properties to be returned to them over 10 years. Where that may not be possible, due to public construction or roads have been built, to be compensated at the today's price.

I agree every refugee should be given the right to decideif they want to return to their property and live in that state or if they want to sell up in that case the person living there should have first refusal.

8. All settlers and GC refugees to be removed from all land belonging to others, over 10 years. Government land should be used to house these people being displaced, over 10 years.

I agree but the GC refugees setttlement have a case because they have lived for so long on TC land eg Limasol I would not make them move, I would pay the TC owner at todays prices the same for TCs living on GC land.

9. 2 states in 1 country to agree on their "state lines" to each other.

Agreed

10. Each state to have their own flag, but cannot be a Turkish or Greek flag. It could be almost the same, but not. Each state will be able to fly 3 flags, Cyprus, State, and the EU.

Agreed.

11. After 5 years, a new Constitution is drawn up, under a Federal System, goes into effect, at the end of 10 years.

Why not at the begining like Serbia and Montenegro?

12. After the Federal Constitution is drawn up, then each state get to draw up their own Constitution, but cannot override Federal rules, on "Principles of Democracy".

Agreed if the Federal consititution has been agreed.

13. Apply "Kifeas's Plan" to the new Government, with the 80%-20% ratio. ( I do not have "Kifeas's Plan" at ready, but perhaps someone can post it)

Altough in principle it appeared agreeable I dont recall how the voting procedure would go, whether GCs living in the north will be able to elect GC representatives? this is something we would need to clarify.

14. At the end of 10 years, we have a "level playing field" with 2 states in 1 country established.

I agree but the first steps have to taken and in order to stimulate the economy in the north the GCs have to make a bold move and allow direct trade and flights. Thats what the EU presidency is also working for.

15. No regular Army for either side, but only Part Time National Guards, keeping their weapons at home.

Disagree we dont any army we are to smal and would to money on it, let the EU protect you and Turkey us. You have not addressed the issue of security guaratees.

I could go on and on on other matters to be done, but this should give you something to think about, how to create a "LEVEL PLAYING FIELD" without creating a Partition,"unintentionally". This will give the TC's 10 years to reach the level par with the GC economically, with the help from any "International Re- Unifying Donor Conferences", to help all Cypriots, to correct the mistakes of the past. Lets not forget also the funds from any OIL, that may be pumped into the Cypriot Economy. We (TC'S) get to have our own state, and control our own economy, and schools, and local Government, although everyone who lives within either state, does have the right to run for office and vote for whom they want, within that state, to represent them, in the 100 seat Government, in NICOSIA:

You are just reconfriming what I am saying that what ever the GC see fit for themselves in the way of ports, flights, security etc etc they shoudl also see fit for the north state and the TCs. This is what they do not wnat to do as it is their total aim to keep us economically hostage for the sake of wanting a solution. In other words Ill strangle you so that you will submit to my demands.

[pitsilos]

can someone tell me which vp is posting because sure as hell this is another vp from yesterday. kikapu you should be able to pick it.

just look at the grammar, the way the sentences are structured, and look at the spelling mistakes, all different, again.

when i get some free time i will go through all your posts vp and i will be able to you how many there are of you out there. don't worry.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu great try have to strat by acknowledging that, let go through the points one by and have other to contribute as well.

1. Open up Ercan and Famagusta port, under the authorization of the RoC, but operated by the TC's, directly to outside world.

The idea I agree with in principle but the only problem for me is that the "RoC" is run totally by the GCs so in effect you are placing it under their control are you not? do you see any problems arising?

2. Dismantle all the crossings from one side to the other, so that there is a freedom of movement by everyone, without having to show an ID.

Agreed

3. Remove 4,000 Turkish Troops immediately, and further 4,000 a year for the next 10 years.

What about the GC guard? I would rather get rid of both.

4. Train 1,000 strong TC National Guards a year, for the next 10 years.

I disagree I dont want any army.

5. Gradually eliminate the whole "Green Line" over the next 10 years.

Think you covered that in point 2

6. Allow all the settlers who are married to a TC, to become Cypriot Citizens. The rest of the settlers, to be given a Residency ID Cards, to be determined, what should become of them at later date.

They could be assessed according to EU norms, those who settled here more than 10 years ago shoul not go back they should be allowed to stay under a special status. The GC will also to put their Pontians in the same catagory.

7. All GC's and TC's properties to be returned to them over 10 years. Where that may not be possible, due to public construction or roads have been built, to be compensated at the today's price.

I agree every refugee should be given the right to decideif they want to return to their property and live in that state or if they want to sell up in that case the person living there should have first refusal.

8. All settlers and GC refugees to be removed from all land belonging to others, over 10 years. Government land should be used to house these people being displaced, over 10 years.

I agree but the GC refugees setttlement have a case because they have lived for so long on TC land eg Limasol I would not make them move, I would pay the TC owner at todays prices the same for TCs living on GC land.

9. 2 states in 1 country to agree on their "state lines" to each other.

Agreed

10. Each state to have their own flag, but cannot be a Turkish or Greek flag. It could be almost the same, but not. Each state will be able to fly 3 flags, Cyprus, State, and the EU.

Agreed.

11. After 5 years, a new Constitution is drawn up, under a Federal System, goes into effect, at the end of 10 years.

Why not at the begining like Serbia and Montenegro?

12. After the Federal Constitution is drawn up, then each state get to draw up their own Constitution, but cannot override Federal rules, on "Principles of Democracy".

Agreed if the Federal consititution has been agreed.

13. Apply "Kifeas's Plan" to the new Government, with the 80%-20% ratio. ( I do not have "Kifeas's Plan" at ready, but perhaps someone can post it)

Altough in principle it appeared agreeable I dont recall how the voting procedure would go, whether GCs living in the north will be able to elect GC representatives? this is something we would need to clarify.

14. At the end of 10 years, we have a "level playing field" with 2 states in 1 country established.

I agree but the first steps have to taken and in order to stimulate the economy in the north the GCs have to make a bold move and allow direct trade and flights. Thats what the EU presidency is also working for.

15. No regular Army for either side, but only Part Time National Guards, keeping their weapons at home.

Disagree we dont any army we are to smal and would to money on it, let the EU protect you and Turkey us. You have not addressed the issue of security guaratees.

I could go on and on on other matters to be done, but this should give you something to think about, how to create a "LEVEL PLAYING FIELD" without creating a Partition,"unintentionally". This will give the TC's 10 years to reach the level par with the GC economically, with the help from any "International Re- Unifying Donor Conferences", to help all Cypriots, to correct the mistakes of the past. Lets not forget also the funds from any OIL, that may be pumped into the Cypriot Economy. We (TC'S) get to have our own state, and control our own economy, and schools, and local Government, although everyone who lives within either state, does have the right to run for office and vote for whom they want, within that state, to represent them, in the 100 seat Government, in NICOSIA:

You are just reconfriming what I am saying that what ever the GC see fit for themselves in the way of ports, flights, security etc etc they shoudl also see fit for the north state and the TCs. This is what they do not wnat to do as it is their total aim to keep us economically hostage for the sake of wanting a solution. In other words Ill strangle you so that you will submit to my demands.

VP,

1. RoC is only authorizing the ports, to make it legal to use, so to be accepted by the international community. The TC's will run them, in accordance to the islands customs and immigration rules, as they stand right now. This may have to be changed, when a new Constitution is written. I do not see a problem here.

2. I would want the "crossings" to be dismantled the same day as the Ports are open for business. The "Green Line" will dismantle over 10 years.

3. 5 years will be a good time to wait and draft a "SOUND" Federal Constitution. Hopefully, the first 5 years will build enough trust by both the communities to have a fair Constitution, rather than, try to get " as much as we can" can of mentality. A little waiting, will do all of us good, as not to rush into it. We have been without the 1960 Constitution for 44 years, so what's your rush.!!

4. There won't be any Army, just Part- Time National Guards for both sides. Perhaps my interpretation of National Guards, is different from yours, so let me explain. National guards will have a regular jobs. Once they do their 6 weeks of "boot camp" training, they will lead civilian lives, except do a once a year 2-3 weeks of military training. These are also recalled in case of Natural Disasters or riots or other emergencies. You will need to have a trained personnel, when you need them on odd occasions. The rest of the time, they will have regular jobs. If I may quote a phrase by the Swiss, " Switzerland does not have a Full Time Army, because Switzerland is a Army". This is because, every male has to do their 3 weeks of military every year, for about 15 years, after completing their "boot camp".

5. As far as GC's electing any GC representative living in the "State of Turkish Cypriots", for the "State Legislator or senate" will have that right, as much as we would have in the "State of Greek Cypriots". The only difference is, the 20 representatives in the Government will be TC's and 80 GC's, no matter what the make up of the local government is for each State, in compliance with "Kifeas's Plan" on decision making, on Federal Level. Personally, I do not see a shift of many people moving to one side or the other, so I do not think, one should worry about being "assimilated" by their votes. And of course, if the rightful property owners who do not wish to move to their land, can do what they like with them, from selling to leasing their property to whom ever wants it. There won't be any restrictions, who can buy or sell property in either states.

6. I'll remind you again, watch how you use the word "you" and "us" in the same sentence when you're addressing me, regarding Cyprus. !! Strike two.!!

I'm sorry not to have had the time to make a complete analysis on the "security measures", but in short, we will be an independent country. Your and every one's security will come from each states Police force and National Guards, as well as the Federal Government. Once Turkey pulls all her troops at the end of 10 years, we should all be having a working Democracy with all the safety measures in place. Since we are all in the EU, and you would want more security, then we can ask the EU to provide the "extra security" to help you sleep at night. I honestly do not know, what extra security we would need. Turkey will be our neighbour to the North, and that's it. same goes for Greece, only to the West of us.

Finally, the reasons I believe the RoC is not being helpful in helping the "TRNC" to open Ercan and Famagusta ports, is, they believe what I believe, and that is, once you get all the goodies, you will tell them to piss off. However, if the whole progress takes over 10 years, then TRUST will be built in that time period.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

1. RoC is only authorizing the ports, to make it legal to use, so to be accepted by the international community. The TC's will run them, in accordance to the islands customs and immigration rules, as they stand right now. This may have to be changed, when a new Constitution is written. I do not see a problem here.

Putting it that way nor do I but are the GCs going to authorize ports without any control over the north states airports and sea ports? If the were inclined to do this then why all the fuss? and this is an issue they will ahve to agree to on day 1.
What do GCs think about this point? you are arguing on their behalf so you may be well of key unless you are GC which has crossed my mind once or twice.

2. I would want the "crossings" to be dismantled the same day as the Ports are open for business. The "Green Line" will dismantle over 10 years.

Agree

3. 5 years will be a good time to wait and draft a "SOUND" Federal Constitution. Hopefully, the first 5 years will build enough trust by both the communities to have a fair Constitution, rather than, try to get " as much as we can" can of mentality. A little waiting, will do all of us good, as not to rush into it. We have been without the 1960 Constitution for 44 years, so what's your rush.!!

What if in 5 years time and with our past track record we are unable to agree a "SOUND" Federal Consitution? what fall back plan would you suggest?

4. There won't be any Army, just Part- Time National Guards for both sides. Perhaps my interpretation of National Guards, is different from yours, so let me explain. National guards will have a regular jobs. Once they do their 6 weeks of "boot camp" training, they will lead civilian lives, except do a once a year 2-3 weeks of military training. These are also recalled in case of Natural Disasters or riots or other emergencies. You will need to have a trained personnel, when you need them on odd occasions. The rest of the time, they will have regular jobs. If I may quote a phrase by the Swiss, " Switzerland does not have a Full Time Army, because Switzerland is a Army". This is because, every male has to do their 3 weeks of military every year, for about 15 years, after completing their "boot camp".

Disagree with this part totally, we do not need an army if we are getting rid of Turkey in 10 years time as for national disasters we have can have trained men like we do in the north at the moment or something similar but no arms or soldiers full or part time. The GCs will have to accept having no army to protect them or us if we are to get rid of Turkeys guarantees and army.

5. As far as GC's electing any GC representative living in the "State of Turkish Cypriots", for the "State Legislator or senate" will have that right, as much as we would have in the "State of Greek Cypriots". The only difference is, the 20 representatives in the Government will be TC's and 80 GC's, no matter what the make up of the local government is for each State, in compliance with "Kifeas's Plan" on decision making, on Federal Level. Personally, I do not see a shift of many people moving to one side or the other, so I do not think, one should worry about being "assimilated" by their votes. And of course, if the rightful property owners who do not wish to move to their land, can do what they like with them, from selling to leasing their property to whom ever wants it. There won't be any restrictions, who can buy or sell property in either states.

So what you are saying is that the 20 reps from the North State can be GC and 20 TC reps 60 GC can be from the south state? So everyone would vote for their reps be he GC or TC but only the top 80 GC reps and top 20 TC reps would go forward to the decision making decision. Doesnt this raise the problem of GCs voting for GC reps in the north state and therefore not allowing an area representitive being a TC from the noerth state representing his community from an understanding of living with TCs. The TCs living in the south would be exposed to siding with the GCs on certain issues because the decision would not effect their state negative but the other state, I feel there is a risk here and the reps should originate from votes cast within the state. So for example if Ahmet got 1000 votes and resides in the north he will put ahead of Mustafa who got 2000 votes because he come form the south or even Yorgo who has 3000 votes resides in the north but the majority ofhis votes cameform the south. I may be confusing matters but I feel it a riask that shoud l be addressed.

6. I'll remind you again, watch how you use the word "you" and "us" in the same sentence when you're addressing me, regarding Cyprus. !! Strike two.!!

This is not an insult and if you argue otherwise Im sure you will upset your GC brothers but you are arguing their side of the issue not ours.

I'm sorry not to have had the time to make a complete analysis on the "security measures", but in short, we will be an independent country. Your and every one's security will come from each states Police force and National Guards, as well as the Federal Government. Once Turkey pulls all her troops at the end of 10 years, we should all be having a working Democracy with all the safety measures in place. Since we are all in the EU, and you would want more security, then we can ask the EU to provide the "extra security" to help you sleep at night. I honestly do not know, what extra security we would need. Turkey will be our neighbour to the North, and that's it. same goes for Greece, only to the West of us.

If there is no army on either side I can see a way forward but if any body is formed that can be used by either state then this for me means risk in which case I would want Turkeys guarantees over the North state until Turkey enters the EU.

Finally, the reasons I believe the RoC is not being helpful in helping the "TRNC" to open Ercan and Famagusta ports, is, they believe what I believe, and that is, once you get all the goodies, you will tell them to piss off. However, if the whole progress takes over 10 years, then TRUST will be built in that time period.

They have these goodies does that make them want to tell us to piss off, all I am saying all along is that both the north and south should be levelled out and sooner or later this will happen we cannot be held hostage for much longer, the EU are putting out the right signals and the "RoC" can sense this as they have already stated they are prepared to take legal action against the EU, the pressure will mount until a time when there is a break through thats when the TRNC will really tell the GCs to piss off as it was without their help they achieved what they wanted so is it better to work together and plan for a united Cyprus or let us fight for what we want?

[Viewpoint]

can someone tell me which vp is posting because sure as hell this is another vp from yesterday. kikapu you should be able to pick it.

just look at the grammar, the way the sentences are structured, and look at the spelling mistakes, all different, again.

when i get some free time i will go through all your posts vp and i will be able to you how many there are of you out there. don't worry.

pits you are getting paranoid yet another conspiracy theory really

[pitsilos]

you are fucking kidding aren't yeah vp3 ? like the 22 hrs?

but don't worry one of these days i will go through and check your posts and i will posts the results. for all to see then we will see