Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

askimwos

Wtf VP ita seems that you don't even know that a federation is for god's sake!! Go open a book man!!

WTF are you on about? and why the anger? why the hell have the GCs been bitching about the 50% 50% law ratification process?

Lets take it stage by stage;

In a federation a bill is drafted by the government and then is passed to the parliament for ratifications and voting.

OK agreed.

The parliament is envisaged to have a representation of 75% GC and 25% TC

So the bill passes allowing that there is no quota required, agreed.

Then the bill is passed to the congress where the representation is 50% for each community to either approve or send back to the parliament for more ratifications.

So the balance here will be 50 50 do all GC accept this? and what has been all the objectons about an unfair balance? do you really know what your community want?

Ofcourse there can be federations with slight differences but this is the main point of it.

Thats what we say and support.

So I can't really see how a bill that is seen as being against a community can be passed.

So you really need to talk to people why they oppose a an equal balance or a mechanism (Kifeas did put one forward which was on the face of it acceptable but only came about after the objections of TCs) that allows TCs or GCs to veto a potential bill that will affect one side more negatively than the other. GC arguements have been on pure majority rule principles, we are 80% so you have to do what we say.

Btw, regarding the guarantee issue, how about having an EU or UN with the right mandate as peaceforce rather than Turkey? Why should we have Turkey or Greece patronising us and behaving like old collonianists?

Please the UN are useless as we all know and in moments of crisis they tend to go to lunch rather than resolve issues.

[pitsilos]

i think from memory kifeas said 80 20 split for congress and bills get through with majority of the greeks together with 25% of the tcs.

but don't quote me on this.


kifeas where are you?

[askimwos]

i think from memory kifeas said 80 20 split for congress and bills get through with majority of the greeks together with 25% of the tcs.

but don't quote me on this.


kifeas where are you?

If this is the case then I am sorry to say vp just lost it and whatever is put in front of him will be rejected.
Lets take the two congress systems and assumme a congress of say 100 members.

In kifeas system there will be 80 GCs and 20 TCs. In order to pass a bill there will need to be a 25% of TCs having to say yes, i.e. 5 out of 20 TC congress members.

In the case of what I proposed and vp agreed, there will be 50 GCs and 50 TCs congress members. In order to pass a bill only 1 TC congress member needs to say yes in the case that all GCs vote yes.

I have not proposed the above congress system by chance as alongside the political equality we need to have workability. If one community feels that strong about a bill all they have to do is all 50 congress members from that community to vote noand their rights are safeguarded. The workability issue was the main problem of the 1960's constitution that allowed one single TC to veto almost every single bill in order to follow his/Ankara's agenda. Prior to the mistake of makarios tableing the 13-points of amendmenta that led to TCs leaving the government there were a series of problems of workability. The RoC could not collect taxes for some time because the TC vice-president vetoed the bill. Now imagine a government not being able to collect taxes or decide a taxation policy!

In the eyes of divisionists like vp which is the system that makes it easier for people that want to stop things happenning and "safeguard" their community "rights" and lead us into a deadlock? If I had your divisionist way of thinking VP I would choose kifeas plan and not mine!!!

I am afraid that some TC brothers have some sort of complex syndrom, let them tell us what theuy are after, political equality or just numbers for the sake of it.

[askimwos]

As for the UN being useless it depends on what mandate they are given and under which UN article this mandate is based on.

But here is another option, what about a multinational force that will include Greek, Turkish as well as troops from other nations? Ofcourse these will have to leave the island after say 5 years?

[Viewpoint]

askimwos

In the case of what I proposed and vp agreed, there will be 50 GCs and 50 TCs congress members. In order to pass a bill only 1 TC congress member needs to say yes in the case that all GCs vote yes.

you said;

Then the bill is passed to the congress where the representation is 50% for each community to either approve or send back to the parliament for more ratifications.

and I said;

So the balance here will be 50 50 do all GC accept this? and what has been all the objectons about an unfair balance? do you really know what your community want?

Where did I accept your proposal? you are twisting things to suit your own arguments. I questioned whether you knew what your community wanted as we have previously debated this issue with Kifeas and agreed something along the lines of a 80/20 split with a certain percentage from each community as a minimum required to get a bill passed which in principle we agreed ask pits if you have any doubts.

Why not have symbolic numbers of soliders and Turkeys and Greeces guarantees until Turkey enter the EU? by which time trust and understanding could be given a chance to develop.

[askimwos]

askimwos

In the case of what I proposed and vp agreed, there will be 50 GCs and 50 TCs congress members. In order to pass a bill only 1 TC congress member needs to say yes in the case that all GCs vote yes.

you said;

Then the bill is passed to the congress where the representation is 50% for each community to either approve or send back to the parliament for more ratifications.

and I said;

So the balance here will be 50 50 do all GC accept this? and what has been all the objectons about an unfair balance? do you really know what your community want?

Where did I accept your proposal? you are twisting things to suit your own arguments. I questioned whether you knew what your community wanted as we have previously debated this issue with Kifeas and agreed something along the lines of a 80/20 split with a certain percentage from each community as a minimum required to get a bill passed which in principle we agreed ask pits if you have any doubts.

Why not have symbolic numbers of soldiers and Turkeys and Greece's guarantees until Turkey enter the EU? by which time trust and understanding could be given a chance to develop.

Then, my misunderstanding of what you said. I initially thought that you accepted what I have proposed. But anyway I am willing to accept kifeas plan as long as this percentage is relatively low, say 20%-25%. Anything higher than that and you have an unworkable system.

As for the troops staying, it is not the 650 troops from Turkey and 950 from Greece that present a problem, it is the whole notion of having Cyprus independence and sovereignty even symbolically questioned.

[askimwos]

Now that we solved the powersharing issue lets see what can be done with the properties and the right of free movement...

[Viewpoint]

Now that we solved the powersharing issue lets see what can be done with the properties and the right of free movement...

You set up a property commission to mirror ours and all refugees apply for restitution or compensation, then everyone has the right to either live north or south under the administration of either TCs or GCs.

[Pyrpolizer]

If we decide we want our rights under the "RoC" agreements then we have to dissolve the TRNC and stake claim.

The sooner the better.

[Viewpoint]

If we decide we want our rights under the "RoC" agreements then we have to dissolve the TRNC and stake claim.

The sooner the better.

That choice has been made Pyro in 1983, unlikely to change unless the offer is so attractive that we cannot refuse which the "RoC" in its current form is not.