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Armenian genocide resolution

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Postby Kifeas » Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:10 pm

bg_turk wrote:
dinos wrote:Coming back to the Armenian genocide resolution, the Turks have much more to lose than the US if the relationship really breaks. I think this is a non-issue, like Y2K. The Turks are not stupid enough to really take threatening actions against the states. So it's time for some popcorn while we watch this minor soap opera play out.


Do not look at it as a threat. Look at this way. Turkey kindly informed you that your actions would have consequences, but you did not listen.

After the friendly gesture of equating Turks to a bunch of Nazis, a gesture only an ally like America is capable of, you certainly are in no position to expect Turkey to cooperate outside of what it is legally obliged to by its NATO membership. And that does not include allowing you to use Incirilik and other Turkish facilities for your immoral war in Iraq.


Keep denying the genocide of an entire nation from its ancestral lands (Armenian genocide,) and at the same time, keep lying and vilifying others by quoting fictitious genocides in order to justify their ethnic cleansing from their own ancestral lands (Greek Cypriots;) and I see Kemalistan, your motherland, at the permanent watching and gazing of EU's entrance door “through” the passage tunnel of a soft drink straw!
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Postby boomerang » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:26 pm

bg_turk wrote:
boomerang wrote:I think Pelosi said...the turks wil get over it...I think she knows a bit more than bg_turk.

Eight former secretaries of state both democrat and republican - Alexander Haig, Henry Kissinger, George Shultz, James Baker, Lawrence Eagleburger, Warren Christopher, Madeleine Albright, Colin Powell; the current secretary Condolezza Rice; and defence secretary Robert Gates would beg to differ from you.

September 25, 2007

The Honorable Nancy Pelosi
Speaker of the House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515-0508

Dear Madam Speaker:

We are writing to express concern that H. Res. 106 could soon be put to a vote. Passage of the resolution would harm our foreign policy objectives to promote reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia. It would also strain our relations with Turkey, and would endanger our national security interests in the region, including the safety of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We do not minimize or deny the enormous significance of the horrible tragedy suffered by ethnic Armenian from 1915 to 1923. During our tenures as Secretaries of the State, we each supported Presidential statements recognizing the mass killings and forced exile of Armenians. It has been longstanding U.S. policy to encourage reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia and to urge the government of Turkey to acknowledge the tragedy. We understand the Administration continues to urge the Turkish government to reexamine its history and to encourage both Turkey and Armenia to work towards reconciliation, including normalizing relations and opening the border. There are some hopeful signs already that both parties are engaging each other. We believe that a public statement by the U.S. Congress at this juncture is likely to undermine what has been painstakingly achieved to date.

We must also recognize the important contributions Turkey is making to U.S. national security, including security and stability in the Middle East and Europe. The United States continues to rely on Turkey for its geo-strategic importance. Turkey is an indispensable partner to our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, helping U.S military with access to Turkish airspace, military bases, and the border crossing with Iraq, Turkey is a linchpin in the transshipment of vital cargo and fuel resources to U.S. troops, coalition partners and Iraqi civilians. Turkish troops serve shoulder-to-shoulder with distinction with U.S. and other NATO allies in the Balkans. Turkey is also a transit hub for non-OPEC oil and gas and remains key to our effort s to help the Euro-Atlantic community bolster its energy security by providing alternative supply sources and routes around Russia and Iran.

It is our view that passage of this resolution could quickly extend beyond symbolic significance. The popularly elected Turkish Grand National Assembly might react strongly to a House resolution, as it did to a French National Assembly resolution a year ago. The result could endanger our national security interests in the region, including our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and damage efforts to promote reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. We strongly urge you to prevent the resolution from reaching the house floor.

Sincerely,


Madeleine K. Albright
James A. Baker III
Warren Christopher
Lawrence S. Eagleburger
Alexander M. Haig, Jr
Henry A. Kissinger
Colin L. Powell
George P. Shultz



http://turkey.usembassy.gov/statement_092507.html


all they wrote about is self serving interests of the US...and that is their opinion...

and in any case they do not count...today the only people that count is the people that voted...and they have spoken...

the turks will get over it...as pelosi said...and the proof is in the pudding...

All I want to see is what turkey gonna do about it...shut everyone out?...oh thats gonna work...yeah work against the yanks and lets see whats gonna happen...

All I see is turkey will get over it and further more still bend backwards for more...

and on a side note with all this goodie goodie bumcham relationship why is it turkey refused entry to to the yanks when they were invading Iraq?...you think this relationship is a its a one way stream?...end of the day the yanks have a long memory...


ADMIN HOW ABOUT ENFORCING THE RULES?
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Postby CopperLine » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:10 am

As far as I see it, the problem with the politics of the Armenian Genocide today can be condensed to four main points :

1. The legal term 'genocide' came into formal international law in 1950/1951. It is an accepted and essential principle of law, including international law, that criminal acts cannot be created through retrospective application of new laws. Therefore, in legal terms there were no genocides before 1950/1951.
However this is a patently absurd conclusion to arrive at if one is using an 'ordinary language' definition of genocide. On that latter score, there have been hundreds of genocides prior to 1950/1951, including the Armenian Genocide.
So in an international legal sense then successive Turkish governments have a correct objection to labelling the Armenian killings a genocide. In an ordinary language sense they don't have a leg to stand on.

2. Successive Turkish governments have claimed that the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians was primarily due to (a) the circumstances of war, such as rebellion, hostile acts etc, (b) the effects of war such as hunger, disease, forced displacement, and (c) the widespread but ad hoc (and not centralised) orders of local commanders

The legal definition of genocide (Genocide Convention, Article 2) is
genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


and the acts punishable as genocide include (article 3) :
(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.


The legal definitions are fairly broad and open to wide interpretation. Thus, arguably, even on a narrow interpretation one could say that genocide has been committed against Gypsies in the UK and Ireland. Genocide does not require the open and systematic use of violence. It can be conducted as a cultural destruction.

Had the 1915 mass killings of Armenians been conducted after the 1951 Genocide Convention came into force then it would undoubtedly have been labelled in legal terms a genocide.

3. Successive Turkish governments fear that conceding the label 'genocide' would (a) lead to compensation claims from Armenians and (b) lead to some sort of recognition of territorial claims at the expense of the Turkish state.

The record of perpetrator states recognising 'genocides' does not suggest that either compensation or territorial adjustment has followed. In that respect Turkish government fears are unfounded.

4. Successive Turkish governments have battled against others even opining that 1915 was the Armenian genocide as if to so label the events of c.1915 could stain the reputation of a government of 1997 or 2007. Equally successive Turkish governments have NOT opened the Ottoman archives (the link provided of 'Armenian in Ottoman Documents' is not the opening of archives; it is the collection of archival material which supports the Turkish government's position - that is a totally different story and doesn't meet the basic criteria of an open archive. It should be noted here that the govts of UK, US, France etc are also reluctant to the point of refusing to open certain archives or materials in their own bloody histories, even from 90+ years ago).


Finally, does it all boil down to a word - is it a mass murder, massacre, etc or is genocide the only word that can be used to describe the events ? To reject the appropriateness of the word 'genocide' is not the same as 'genocide denial' (though sometimes the two can some pretty close).
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Postby CopperLine » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:16 am

Getting advice from Henry Kissinger on the morality of labelling something a genocide is worse than getting moral advice from Heinrich Himmler.

It is a sorry state of affairs when the best argument that US politicians can come up with for HoReps refusing to label the the Armenian killings as genocide is that it might sour US-Turkish relations. Like saying, let's not call the holocaust a genocide because it might sour US-German relations. Hardly an example of occupying the moral high ground or arguing from principle !
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Postby zan » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:43 am

It would also be irresponsible to just pass something that still has not been resolved. Let there be an honest and final debate on it and the numbers sorted out and then condemn. It is only countries with political interests that are fueling the whole thing against Turkey so why not the other way around. Lets equate the problem and then we can blame without doubt.
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Postby boomerang » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:15 am

CopperLine wrote:Getting advice from Henry Kissinger on the morality of labelling something a genocide is worse than getting moral advice from Heinrich Himmler.

It is a sorry state of affairs when the best argument that US politicians can come up with for HoReps refusing to label the the Armenian killings as genocide is that it might sour US-Turkish relations. Like saying, let's not call the holocaust a genocide because it might sour US-German relations. Hardly an example of occupying the moral high ground or arguing from principle !


I totally agree with your comment here...and so far this is the position the bush admin is taking...

Copperline you seemed to be good in coming up with dates...
1...Can you also please tell me at what date ethnic cleansing was accepted as being not the norm?
and
2...do you know of anycases since the dates that you will quote ethnic cleansing was rejected and reversed?

thanks


PS...I have asked this question before but maybe you might have missed the request...
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Postby dinos » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:42 am

boomerang wrote:ADMIN HOW ABOUT ENFORCING THE RULES?


If something is going amiss, why not just send the party involved a quick PM so as to get the matter resolved without getting the whole board involved?

I made an error with my sig y/day and resolving the matter privately would've been appreciated. I didn't care for being accused of choosing to violate board rules. Similarly, I'm sure the admins would rather not baby sit grown adults on an internet forum.

These matters should be resolved privately.

Hope you're well...
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Postby boomerang » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:17 am

Dinos I am talking about bg_turk and his little picture...

I had a sig picture before and the admin pointed me to the rules...and my picture had nothing to do with the cyprob...

This individual, I remember, has been told numerous times to remove it but he insists in breaking rules...
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:37 pm

CopperLine wrote:It is a sorry state of affairs when the best argument that US politicians can come up with for HoReps refusing to label the the Armenian killings as genocide is that it might sour US-Turkish relations. Like saying, let's not call the holocaust a genocide because it might sour US-German relations. Hardly an example of occupying the moral high ground or arguing from principle !


I think what is a sorry state is the fact that lawmakers and politicians are in the absurd situation of legislating what did and did not occur in history. What judicial authority does the US house of representatives have in order to indict an entire country for a crime? After what careful examination of evidence has it reached that conclusion? I thought it was a legislative body after all.

The passage of this genocide resolution constitutes a condemnation for a crime without trial and prosecution. It contravenes the principle of due process enshrined in the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution. Turkey has never been indicted with regard to the question of 1915, even though there is nothing that stops Armenians from applying to the ICJ for crimes committed against them or their ancestors.

The ex post facto inculpation of Turkey by such a resolution is even more absurd given the fact that the word and the concept of 'genocide' did not even exist back in 1915.
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Postby GreekForumer » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:11 pm

bg_turk wrote:I think what is a sorry state is the fact that lawmakers and politicians are in the absurd situation of legislating what did and did not occur in history. What judicial authority does the US house of representatives have in order to indict an entire country for a crime? After what careful examination of evidence has it reached that conclusion? I thought it was a legislative body after all.

The passage of this genocide resolution constitutes a condemnation for a crime without trial and prosecution. It contravenes the principle of due process enshrined in the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution. Turkey has never been indicted with regard to the question of 1915, even though there is nothing that stops Armenians from applying to the ICJ for crimes committed against them or their ancestors.


In the (Non-Turkish) academic world, the Armenian Genocide is a historical fact. It is because Turkey refuses to face the truth that parliaments feel they should officially recognise the Genocide.

There is an organisation of scholars who's primary interest is the study of Genocide. This organisation is called International Association of Genocide Scholars.

They have stated, UNEQUIVOCALLY AND ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS, that the horror that befell the Armenians was indeed a case of Genocide.

This organisation even sends letters to the Turkish government encouraging them to 'fess up.

Instead of going on about "Armenian archives", Turkey should host a special conference for the relevant specialists of this organisation and publically debate the matter.
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