Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

you dont want a united country not now not ever...because we are so different!

Did I misunderstood again something?

yes you did, i never said that, you are doing it again twisting and changing and making me repeat and just causing general stress!!

She does exactly the same to me....I put it down to English being her second language.

oh she can speak english alright, but only when she wants to....

pitsilos, i am not playing games here, most people who read my posts do know where i stand, i have written around here many times roughly what i would like to see happen, and that ultimately is unification, but ultimately being the key word here, it is very important how that would take place and under what conditions, if it every came to that. I definately would not want a dominatrix relation with my beloved compatriots, i would save that exclusively for Lena

However i would like recognition before anything, because as encompassingly nationalistic some people here are, i dont think that is the overall view in the south and i would hate to see hegemonistic people putting GC interests before the rights of the TC people. As i believe that is what had happened in the past.

If we are going to unify that should be BECAUSE we are 2 people trying to live together in peace, not because we hold your land and your properties, however the assertive attitude of the RoC towards our isolation seems to reflect anything but that, therefore making the light of a unified Cyprus very VERY dim for me, so i dont think i am as enthusiastic as some of the other elderly TCs here, basically im not really holding my breath for it

Shahmaran you keep refering in the past as if this is 1963 and not 2007?
You say that you don't trust the GCs and that you more or less expect more of the same. Here are some differences between the situation back then and now:

- in the 60s the notion of democracy was quite strange to most Cypriots be it TCS or GCs. After ages of being ruled by foreign powers they suddendly became rulers in their land. Inexperience blended with nationalistic elements from both sides led to some people from both sides assuming that the 1960s constitution was a step towards either enosis or taksim.

- Back then the majority of the people were illiterate

- In Greece there was a junta regime that thought that cyprus more or less belonged to them and that makarios was the obstacle for them and their american friends plans

- the poverty of the people made it easier for nationalists to influence

- the communist/left parties were left alone to fight for the friendship between the two communities and were hit from all sides (eoka b and tmt)

- people couldn't realise that cyprus can prosper on its own and no help would be needed by the motherlands - so they thought that by being part of either Greece or Turkey they would have a better life. Well the experience of RoC that despite having to deal with 1/3 of the population being refugees shows that this is not the case and that Cypriots can prosper without them

- Nowadays people are educated and surely have the experience of where hidden agendas can lead us.

- BBF is on the cards

I could go on and on oulining differences between now and then. Anyway I am really amazed by how much some young people from both sides are stuck in the past even if they hadn't lived thosed events. The fact that you aknowledge that its mostly old TCs that want unification of the island shows that it is not the events of 1963 and 1974 thatmake people mistrust GCs but the very effective progaganda that poisoned young people's minds. And I am afraid shahmaran that you are one of the victims of propaganda that people like VP made a proffesion of spreading.

Very well said Askimwos.

On the other hand I think Shah said it is the old TCs that don't want re-unification, not the young ones. And i tend to agree with him.

From what I know the oldest generation of TCs are rather skeptic.

[Kikapu]

And I am afraid shahmaran that you are one of the victims of propaganda that people like VP made a proffesion of spreading.

I think Shah is smart enough to realise, that soon or later, what's good for him and his people, is to prosper in one country, 2 states, where everyone is free to choose where they want to come & go and live in Cyprus.

I'm now the official "Propaganda Buster", so all Propagandist propaganda will be shot down with my "Propaganda Ray Gun".

[zan]

And I am afraid shahmaran that you are one of the victims of propaganda that people like VP made a proffesion of spreading.

I think Shah is smart enough to realise, that soon or later, what's good for him and his people, is to prosper in one country, 2 states, where everyone is free to choose where they want to come & go and live in Cyprus.

I'm now the official "Propaganda Buster", so all Propagandist propaganda will be shot down with my "Propaganda Ray Gun".

No violence please! You have been warned. Official warning issued by the propaganda Busters regulator.





Askimwos


I fully understand the point you made on your last post but you have made that list without proper respect for the fact that two things never change. These two things are political aims and business aims. On both these points VP has been asking for a level playing field before any unification can be made. I do wish you guys would stop taking this fear we have as at a personal level. Although at times they are presented at that level we must have surely reached a point now when a little understanding can redirect that to its proper place.


I

[Kikapu]

These two things are political aims and business aims. On both these points VP has been asking for a level playing field before any unification can be made.

Zan,

With all due respect to you, I think you're being little naive on VP's slogan, on the "leveling the playing field". Let me translate what he actually means.

If VP wants Partition today, on an "uneven playing field", why an earth would he want a Unification, once the RoC allows the "TRNC" free to commerce with the rest of the world. Once that door is opened by the RoC to the world, the world will not stop trading with the "TRNC", if Unification does not take place, after the field has been leveled, what ever the hell that suppose to mean anyway, and the RoC will be left holding the bag...empty. So basically, trying to "snooker" the RoC with slogans like "lets level the playing field before we can Unify", is basically to have a Partition with the RoC blessing. Personally, if the RoC wants to fall for a "low level scam" like that, then they deserve to give VP what he wants. If I can figure this "silly game", I'm almost certain, the RoC can. Why he keeps repeating this foolish idea is beyond me.

Question that I have is, why can't this "field" be levelled, once we are Unified. If it can happen before, it can surely happen after Unification. Please, enough with all these baby talks VP. Time to grow up and be serious. Lets not try and fool people, because, the "Propaganda Buster" is watching.

[miltiades]

And I am afraid shahmaran that you are one of the victims of propaganda that people like VP made a proffesion of spreading.

I think Shah is smart enough to realise, that soon or later, what's good for him and his people, is to prosper in one country, 2 states, where everyone is free to choose where they want to come & go and live in Cyprus.

I'm now the official "Propaganda Buster", so all Propagandist propaganda will be shot down with my "Propaganda Ray Gun".

No violence please! You have been warned. Official warning issued by the propaganda Busters regulator.





Askimwos


I fully understand the point you made on your last post but you have made that list without proper respect for the fact that two things never change. These two things are political aims and business aims. On both these points VP has been asking for a level playing field before any unification can be made. I do wish you guys would stop taking this fear we have as at a personal level. Although at times they are presented at that level we must have surely reached a point now when a little understanding can redirect that to its proper place.


I

Zan , both you and VP have , it appears , a very heavy burden to carry for the rest of your lives. You are obsessed with "level playing fields " an imaginary set of rules that casts a dark cloud up on your judgement , what is a level playing field when Cypriots deny their identity because such identity happens to also belong to the vast majority of Cypriots. You must ask your selves if you belong in Cyprus amongst Cypriots or , in your own words , a part of that new modern world that is Turkey !

[zan]

These two things are political aims and business aims. On both these points VP has been asking for a level playing field before any unification can be made.

Zan,

With all due respect to you, I think you're being little naive on VP's slogan, on the "leveling the playing field". Let me translate what he actually means.

If VP wants Partition today, on an "uneven playing field", why an earth would he want a Unification, once the RoC allows the "TRNC" free to commerce with the rest of the world. Once that door is opened by the RoC to the world, the world will not stop trading with the "TRNC", if Unification does not take place, after the field has been leveled, what ever the hell that suppose to mean anyway, and the RoC will be left holding the bag...empty. So basically, trying to "snooker" the RoC with slogans like "lets level the playing field before we can Unify", is basically to have a Partition with the RoC blessing. Personally, if the RoC wants to fall for a "low level scam" like that, then they deserve to give VP what he wants. If I can figure this "silly game", I'm almost certain, the RoC can. Why he keeps repeating this foolish idea is beyond me.

Question that I have is, why can't this "field" be levelled, once we are Unified. If it can happen before, it can surely happen after Unification. Please, enough with all these baby talks VP. Time to grow up and be serious. Lets not try and fool people, because, the "Propaganda Buster" is watching.

Naive? Is this the same naivete that set the 1960 agreement? The same one that the RoC wants to return to today. The same one that they are now saying Makarios was wrong to try and change. What the powers saw in that day was a need to give things like the veto to the Cypriots because they had a legitimate right and a need to have it. What would have happened without it......well..........ENOSIS is what. Why did the powers of the day insist on guarantors? Because it was needed. It was needed by the TCs and it was needed by Cyprus. There is no difference in the need for these things today and I will go further and say that because of what has happened, more is needed. We had no experience in running our own country then... we have now, no matter how many times you call it a suedo state. We want to hold our heads up in Cyprus and say we can and have contributed to our country. Don't tell me we can as individuals because that individual status was taken away from us and we now demand that as a combined peoples. Most of us can walk into any EU nation and claim EU status and leave those that can't behind so why don't we. That is what you are asking us to do by giving up our country and walking into the RoC as workers from abroad. We don't want to emigrate we want to integrate. Words will not do it and false hope will not do it. If the RoC does not want to trust or is incapable of negotiating a deal where we can integrate slowly then the TRNC/KKTC will remain. It is not something we can give up easily. Shahmaran has told you guys how the young generation feel but you insist on ridiculing him. VP has shown you how the family man feels and you are trying to discredit him. Lets not throw words around like naive too freely because they have a habit of bouncing back. Put all you know together and work out what is needed for the job not what you have decided but what will actually get the job done.

[LENA]

oh she can speak english alright, but only when she wants to....

i would like to see happen, and that ultimately is unification, but ultimately being the key word here, it is very important how that would take place and under what conditions, if it every came to that. I definately would not want a dominatrix relation with my beloved compatriots, i would save that exclusively for Lena

However i would like recognition before anything, because as encompassingly nationalistic some people here are, i dont think that is the overall view in the south and i would hate to see hegemonistic people putting GC interests before the rights of the TC people. As i believe that is what had happened in the past.

If we are going to unify that should be BECAUSE we are 2 people trying to live together in peace, not because we hold your land and your properties, however the assertive attitude of the RoC towards our isolation seems to reflect anything but that, therefore making the light of a unified Cyprus very VERY dim for me, so i dont think i am as enthusiastic as some of the other elderly TCs here, basically im not really holding my breath for it

I can do things when I want very well but my English are horrible some times …

Ok no women in the government and if its possible no women around talking and breathing…but lots of women in bed…right?

We are 2 people trying to live together you said (by the way my dear Shahmaran we are talking about thousands of people here not just the 2 of us…nutty boy…its too soon for us to live together!!!)

Ok you want recognition before anything else but you want and unification eventually. But after all, the light of a unified Cyprus is very dim for you and you are not holding your breath for that. Thank God, by the way, we don’t want any more deaths for the Cyprus problem. But can you explain me please how after the recognition of the “TRNC” as a country you will come back to tell us that the only thing that you ever dreamed was the unified Cyprus? And since you don’t see that light of the unification but also you don’t really wait for that, how much do you want the unified Cyprus exactly???

[LENA]

I could go on and on oulining differences between now and then. Anyway I am really amazed by how much some young people from both sides are stuck in the past even if they hadn't lived thosed events. The fact that you aknowledge that its mostly old TCs that want unification of the island shows that it is not the events of 1963 and 1974 that make you thing this was but the very effective progaganda thatpoisoned younf people's way of thinking. And I am afraid shahmaran that you are one of the victims of propaganda that people like VP made a proffesion of spreading.

Askimwos really, I couldn’t agree with you more!!!!!

[LENA]

I think Shah said it is the old TCs that don't want re-unification, not the young ones. And i tend to agree with him.

Pyro read his post again…I don’t think he is a big fun of the re-unification…and he is 26 remember?

[LENA]

That is what you are asking us to do by giving up our country and walking into the RoC as workers from abroad. We don't want to emigrate we want to integrate. Words will not do it and false hope will not do it. If the RoC does not want to trust or is incapable of negotiating a deal where we can integrate slowly then the TRNC/KKTC will remain. It is not something we can give up easily. Shahmaran has told you guys how the young generation feel but you insist on ridiculing him. VP has shown you how the family man feels and you are trying to discredit him. Lets not throw words around like naive too freely because they have a habit of bouncing back. Put all you know together and work out what is needed for the job not what you have decided but what will actually get the job done.

Zan I understand your fears and your thoughts but I don’t think that we asked from you to emigrate…that’s why we talk about one country. And which country are you talking about? We didn’t ask you to give up any country we asked for unification. All we ask is too give a chance…a chance for unification…I asked from VP what % wants in the government and he said that the % of the TC in the population will not be enough to represent them in government decisions.

What exactly is the “done job” for you? Recognition or unification?
How we are going to put all we know together if we don’t even agree what is that we are going to work on it?
You believe that we are trying to ridicule and discredit people here? Or is the habit of GCs?