Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

oh i can definately see Pyr rushing to the border with his luggage and waving his hand in the air going "ME ME ME"

[Viewpoint]

oh i can definately see Pyr rushing to the border with his luggage and waving his hand in the air going "ME ME ME"

Shah surprise surprise they don't want to be a minority in TC state, ring any bells? dejavu or what? What they see fit for us they do not want for themselves talking about being a hypocrite.

[pitsilos]

why would someone want to live in an illegal state?

we are not illegals you know, we are cypriots

[LENA]

Lena, I don't know how young you are but here you have a party that did not take part in the intercommunal clashes in the 60's, has traditionally been for raproachment and one of their main slogans is that the TCs are brothers and not the enemy. You know very well that if there is one party in the south that had traditional links with the TCs is this party and we all would like to see more actions from their side. AKEL may not be the government but they represent more than a third of the GC electorate and need to influence tpap policies or get rid of him alltogether.

I am young but askimwos…I know few things from politics….and I know that AKEL represent almost half of the GC….bla bla bla…and I know that AKEL is almost the only one which support TC that much. But they cant do anything. They influence lots of things but you know that they cant elect as a president of RoC an “Akeliko”. And I thing you know why! Don’t you?

Lena have you never for 1 second considered that division maybe the solution, do you prefer the period between 1960 to 1974 or 1974 to 2007. The peaceful life we have on both sides is an indication that something is working right and people are not dieing everyday like Palestine and Iraq.

No I thought of that several times…and I know that will bring lots of problems to the island…south and north. VP do you think that I have anything to get with the solution? No! I am not going to get any money, I am not going to get any houses or properties…I am not going to share the oil…etc.
For me the solution it will not have any financial effects. Do you know what it will change for me? I will have the chance to learn about my country through my experience, I am going to teach to my students about a united country, I am not going to teach about wars, I am going to secure a better future for my children and my grandchildren.
Why do we have to fight? We are able to live together. We have villages with TC in south without any problems. Why is it so difficult for you to accept us? I had several times coffee and dinner in a TC house in Potamia. But you don’t want to have even a cup of coffee with me or Miltiades. You want to live with your hater. Why you asking me all the times what I prefer? I told you for me its only one country. And I am sure that we can live together without wars and fights. As we used to do that before all this and as we can do it now.

[Pyrpolizer]

oh i can definately see Pyr rushing to the border with his luggage and waving his hand in the air going "ME ME ME"

And there comes a vampired taxi driver called Viewpoint to pick me up.
I ask him why are you dead and he says "because I was the one who proposed this".

[Pyrpolizer]

oh i can definately see Pyr rushing to the border with his luggage and waving his hand in the air going "ME ME ME"

Shah surprise surprise they don't want to be a minority in TC state, ring any bells? dejavu or what? What they see fit for us they do not want for themselves talking about being a hypocrite.

Where did you see that? I wouldn't have a problem be a minority in a democratic country with full respect of my minority rights under EU law.

How about you?

[Viewpoint]

LENA

No I thought of that several times…and I know that will bring lots of problems to the island…south and north. VP do you think that I have anything to get with the solution? No! I am not going to get any money, I am not going to get any houses or properties…I am not going to share the oil…etc.
For me the solution it will not have any financial effects. Do you know what it will change for me? I will have the chance to learn about my country through my experience, I am going to teach to my students about a united country, I am not going to teach about wars, I am going to secure a better future for my children and my grandchildren.
Why do we have to fight? We are able to live together. We have villages with TC in south without any problems. Why is it so difficult for you to accept us? I had several times coffee and dinner in a TC house in Potamia. But you don’t want to have even a cup of coffee with me or Miltiades. You want to live with your hater. Why you asking me all the times what I prefer? I told you for me its only one country. And I am sure that we can live together without wars and fights. As we used to do that before all this and as we can do it now.

I have to say I like your posts their this naiveness about them to the extreme like a kids story book and everyone lived happy ever after. What you tend to omit is that power sharing is a very difficult thing to strike a balance with people on a 1 to 1 basis do not have any problems getting along and this is what you base your whole philosophy on which in real life is not the deciding factor if the political balance is not right then this relayed down tot eh people like we saw in 1963, everyone got along fine then as but the explosion and hidden agenda brought us to where we are today. You have to appreciate that being the minority you are face with many problems and do not have the comfort thresh hold of saying we all Cypriots don't worry because it is not you who could face discrimination and no political weight to influence your own future in your own country.

We are all OK eating and drinking together as we are very polite people but what do you think about power sharing which is one of our major concerns.

[pitsilos]

power sharing which is one of our major concerns.

kifeas gave you a goodexample how that would work.

and after all the blah, blah, blah, at the end you grudgingly agreed.

so why do you ask this question again?

[zan]

As I have said many times before Miltiades, the refugees do not have automatic right of return due to circumstances. The same circumstances that has taken something from all of us. The refugee problem is not the end all of our problems either. Not fuck you, but a very big SORRY.

hi Zan mate,

I'd like you to elaborate a little more on what you mean. You say that refugees do not automatically have the right of return - why not? What do you mean by this? I have a real issue with this for one very simple reason - IF right of return can be achieved without the displacement of anyone currently (I include most settlers here too) why can that not be afforded to them? If your answer to this is simply that the refugees must pay for the mistakes of certain members of their community in past years then I completely disagree. Just as I think that it is unfair that TCs suffer due to the isolation of the TRNC (and that something should be done about it) I also find it unfair that refugees are deprived of their property and more importantly their right of return (not necessarily to their original property but to their original village if required). Tell me one good reason Zan why the refugees can't return in exchange for the lifting of TRNC isolation in a comprehensive settlement? Is there something fundamental I am missing or is it just spite that because your community suffered in the past so ours must now be deprived of a fundamental right simply to ensure that a part of Cyprus remains ethnically pure? Don't get me wrong I understand the need for any union to be gradual and that transition is required but what exactly is the point of imposing permanent restrictions on refugees for no good reason other than to ensure ethnic dominance in a particular geographical area? Either we unite or we don't - the destination must be a country in which we all can share - remembering also that now we are in the EU where the geographical barriers are meant to mean very little.

Hi Alexis

I agree with the way you have stated the problem. My statement was for those that keep harping on about the refugees returning as the panacea of he problem. I don't wish to punish anyone for their fathers’ sins and really am dead against it but the return and the right to return cannot supersede everything. I have always said that compensation is their automatic right and that all those responsible must get together and find the money and I also think that more reasonable sums must be asked for from all sides. These millions that people are asking for is just ridicules and they must consider what that actually means to their countries. As you have said, when a settlement is discussed the plight of the refugees must not be the one hurdle that cannot b got over. We all know that the RoC is more interested in getting control of the land and not so much for the individual so in my opinion if this becomes that hurdle then it is political and not personal there fore the claim that these poor people are homeless suffering and have an insatiable urge to get back to their villages is just a tool. If for example a partition is agreed then anyone with an uncontrollable urge will still be able to move back and I for one would welcome them and the same goes for TCs that want to move back south. Even this could be seen as limited integration and who knows what will happen in the future.

[Alexis]

Hi Alexis

I agree with the way you have stated the problem. My statement was for those that keep harping on about the refugees returning as the panacea of he problem. I don't wish to punish anyone for their fathers’ sins and really am dead against it but the return and the right to return cannot supersede everything. I have always said that compensation is their automatic right and that all those responsible must get together and find the money and I also think that more reasonable sums must be asked for from all sides. These millions that people are asking for is just ridicules and they must consider what that actually means to their countries. As you have said, when a settlement is discussed the plight of the refugees must not be the one hurdle that cannot b got over. We all know that the RoC is more interested in getting control of the land and not so much for the individual so in my opinion if this becomes that hurdle then it is political and not personal there fore the claim that these poor people are homeless suffering and have an insatiable urge to get back to their villages is just a tool. If for example a partition is agreed then anyone with an uncontrollable urge will still be able to move back and I for one would welcome them and the same goes for TCs that want to move back south. Even this could be seen as limited integration and who knows what will happen in the future.

hi Zan

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you see my point of view and pretty much think you have summed up my sentiment in your reply. I think you are right in saying that now 30 years on there are probably not that many refugees that have a desperate need to move back to their homesand and who suffer physically because they can't. It is more the principle and precedent of applying permanent restrictions that riles me. I think that any solution needs to at least leave the door open for the future. It is conceivable perhaps in the near future that North Cyprus enters the EU either as part of a unified Cyprus or perhaps even in its current form under an agreed partition, either way entry to the EU would mean we will have unified under the EU umbrella and that any residence restrictions would be temporary anyway. As for the RoC trying to get control of the land that is possibly true but only if you think along partitionist grounds. I have said this many times before. I would be quite happy to see a unified Cyprus in which the two constituent states remain as they are now but in which there was (at least in principle) the ability for all to travel and reside anywhere within the country after a specified transition period and in which local voting rights were applicable throughout the country. I know this is difficult to stomach for the TC community, but that's why transitional periods are required. We all know from numerous public opinion polls that actually not that many refugees will return and instead would take their compensation and build houses amongst their own majority areas, but denying refugees at least the right to build in their original villages is not completely fair imo. Anyway, I still see more of a problem trying to agree a land split in the case of partition, in which case then I would think it very reasonable that the GC community (RoC if you like) tries to get as much land back off the TRNC as possible (even upto an 80:20 split), than agreeing unification where restrictions on refugees (at least) are temporary and where we eventually trust each other enough to allow free movement and residence across the whole island - then we really would be following the Swiss model.

Remember that whilst your community might suspect the RoC government of wanting to grab land the present reality is that the TRNC holds more land than she needs. If your community insists on partition with all the benefits that will give you (and us in some ways) in terms of security, being able to run your own affairs, no longer being the minority player, you should be able to stomach the idea that you would only be left with the land proportional to your population. I don't want to come across harsh but some might say since you are the ones insisting on partition that it is your community that should be slightly short-changed on this account. I hate talking numbers but the truth is that in trying to agree partition it necessitates talking numbers since we are essentially splitting the island and its resources in two. Whilst if we agree on unification you will at least be equal political partners and we would share the island's resources the only drawback being that you will have to somehow live with us. A TC on this forum once argued that had things been different in the sixties perhaps the TC community would have flourished and ended up owning upto 37% of the island (as you now effectively do). This is as maybe and we will never know for sure but you have to wake up to the fact that your side now holds onto 37% of the land which undoubtedly has the most economic potential (even in 1974 it is estimated this accounted for around 65% of the economy). The point is that land means money, opportunity, a growing economy and security for the future. If we were to agree partition as a GC I would expect my government at the very least to negotiate for as much land back as possible. I would much rather see a unified Cyprus of course. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts Zan.