Cyprus-Forum.com

[pitsilos]

cype have you ever thought for a moment thats what the yanks wanted? reason to stay there for ever?

do you think they care how many or who is killing each other? i don't think they care. mission accomplished they got the oil and extended the life of the US$.

if everything was rosie they would have to leave right? but if they are divided, they get to stay.

since then iraqi liberation oil is off limits to china, did you know that?

and iran yes the idiot is unpopular because his rhetoric is too much. the ayatolah is not happy for this reason and , he can have his head on platter if he wanted to. not alone sack him.

but don't worry iran is next. bush will see to that on the last year of his presidency, wait and see. you see the republicans are finished in the us government and bush the dickhead that he is, he will start some bullshit story, attack because the republicans have nothing to lose from starting a war, they are finished. but if they make it hard for the next president, they have a chance of coming back.

[tessintrnc]

Its not only oil though, what about the profits for the companies making the guns, uniforms and vehicles etc? İts not in their interests for this war to stop either, and if a few thousand young American soldiers die in the process?.........Doesn't matter really, not to America Ltd. I think the end to the war will have to come from the American people themselves, they sure as hell don't listen to anyone else!!
Tess

[zan]

I have to agree with Cyp. You guys are giving too much credit to the US as to being in control of the situation

[Kikapu]

would george be that stupid ? .... personal opinion : stupidity appears to be his main characteristic .......

My mother says,

"Stupid is, What Stupid Does".

I also heard that, US went to Iraq to create a Democracy, and if it worked there, they will then bring to America.

[Pete_D]

I have to agree with Cyp. You guys are giving too much credit to the US as to being in control of the situation

I Agree. I'm sorry, but I think those arguments from tess and pitsilos are bordering on "conspiracy theory" rubbish.

Firstly, consider Vietnam. The US will not forget this, the public will not forget. The US will not want anything that starts seeming like "another 'Nam".

Second, that has to be bollox about the "continued contracts for military hardware" etc. Come on, the Americans don't need a war to push for big defence spending. In fact, it is all small arms stuff in Iraq... no, the big spending comes from announcing countries like China / North Korea are posing a threat - i.e threats from NATION STATES - and then you can spend big on missile defence systems etc. Besides, it takes too long to turn around renewable mil spec equipment.

Also, remember that Bush's own advisory panels advise a withdrawl from Iraq. Plus, look at the American strategy: they keep injecting short-term large troop numbers for "one big effort" (which keeps failing) to control the country. It is blatantly not a long-term military strategy - right from day one it hasn't been! - because they need to keep the US voting public sweet.

To think anything different is just plain ignorant.
No way does the US want to stay for ever. If nothing else, it is a big drain on military resources. Well, ok maybe there is the "ultimate, ultimate" conspiracy theory saying they want to stay for ever. I'm talking about the one that the world is run by the Illuminati - do you believe that??!!! (If you don't know what it is, look it up).

Ok, now about the oil. America - or anywhere else - doesn't NEED to keep a military presence in a country to control its oil! The big oil companies just move in to any country's market which allows it to (look at other states in the middle east). So all the US needs is a stable democracy that will allow for US investment. And US investment is already happening in Iraq.

The influence of Iran is, I think, a real problem for them but I am sure it is something that could (and was, to an extent) predicted. I am in two minds... I am wondering if the US hopes to use Iraq as a launching pad into Iran. I mentioned as much previously. I do hope not, though.

Pete

[cypezokyli]

would george be that stupid ? .... personal opinion : stupidity appears to be his main characteristic .......

My mother says,

"Stupid is, What Stupid Does".

I also heard that, US went to Iraq to create a Democracy, and if it worked there, they will then bring to America.

[Kikapu]

Firstly, consider Vietnam. The US will not forget this, the public will not forget. The US will not want anything that starts seeming like "another 'Nam".

Second, that has to be bollox about the "continued contracts for military hardware" etc. Come on, the Americans don't need a war to push for big defence spending. In fact, it is all small arms stuff in Iraq...

Pete_D,


"Born again Idiot, son of a Bush" and his cronies never believed, this would be another Vietnam, hence the term that was used, before the war as "Cake Walk". It took them 3 years to admit, they were losing the war, when in fact, it was lost from the beginning. They were hoping a gift from "Allah" to save them from defeat. Well, all they got was more trouble, and only from a relatively small "rag tag" organisation. Imagine if they get caught in a "full scale" civil war. We lost the war in Vietnam, because we are not good in Gorilla warfare situation, and same is happening in Iraq.

Now, as far as spending money on the war. Few days ago, the budget for the war in Iraq, and a tiny bit for Afghanistan until year 2008, came to staggering $800 Billion Dollars. I don't think people really appreciate how big a Billion is, let alone 800 of them. Well, it looks something like this. $800,000,000,000. Do not be fooled to believe, that this is for reconstruction. No, most of this money is going into the pockets of the Defence contractors and service providers, like Dick Cheney's old company, Halliburton. Remember the "no bid" contracts went out, all to friendly companies. This war was meant to be a "cake walk" and at the same time, for them to rob the US treasury, by spending the tax payers money like a drunken sailors. As long as the war was won, Americans would have kept their mouths shut, like idiots, but now the war is being lost, and "change of Power" has occurred, Bush is now, trying to buy time, so,

a) Leave office before complete defeat, so as to leave his mess to the next President to clean up, then blame others for "cut & run".
b) Spend more of tax payers money, with even more troops, for the next two years.

And yes, the US does want to stay in Iraq, for ever, is the reason, why they are building several permanent bases, and a US embassy in Baghdad, that has the largest number of personnel, which is over 3,000 at one of Saddams Palaces. But of course, if they can't beat bunch of "rag tags" imagine what will happen, if all of Iraq, turned against the Americans. The Shites want all they can get for themselves...the OIL. They hope the Americans get a "bloody nose" and leave, so that they can start the civil war officially. Don't be fooled my Malikis, we want a Unity Government. That is just lip service. Why do you think, the Iranians and the Syrians are in there to stir up the "shit" even more. Six helicopters has been shot down in the last 3 weeks, and if you don't think the USA is in a lot of trouble, then I don't know what to say to you.

[Pete_D]

Hi Kikapu,

I only just noticed your reply. Anyway, as I currently cannot sleep I will take some time to respond.

First of all, let me ask you from where you get this figure of 800 billion USD for spending on the war in Iraq (and Afghanistan)? Please quote your source. The only figures I could obtain were between $500 and $550 billion for the entire spending on the “war on terror”.

And please do not insult your readers by saying we cannot understand what a “billion” is. First thing to say is that you are (correctly) quoting the US / economic billion, i.e a “thousand million”, and not the traditional British definition of a “million million”. But please, whilst it is an incomprehensible amount to imagine sitting there in e.g loose change, we can all deal with the figure as a relative amount.

Is it a lot of money ($800 billion, or even $500 billion)? Yes and no. Consider, for example:

* due to procurement and R & D costs, a SINGLE B2 stealth bomber aeroplane cost the American taxpayer $2 billion [Ref: “Skunk Works”, Ben R. Rich (former head of Lockheed’s secret “Skunk Works” development unit) & Leo Janos] (funded by the CIA’s “black budget” program).

* A single Nimitz class aircraft carrier costs $22 billion to run, through its entire life (with or without the Iraq war!) [Ref: Federation of American Scientists Military Analysis Network, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/cvn-68.htm]

* The entire US defence budget for 2007 was some $439.3 billion [Ref: Official White House information, http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/defense.html]

* The US national debt currently stands at $8.7 trillion and is currently increasing by an average of $1.47 billion every single day! [Ref: US National Debt Clock, http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/]

As I said, I am sure you will find the spending on the war in Iraq will be dwarfed, in time, by total budget spending (including R&D costs) as a result of countering the threat from “rogue” and other hostile states to the US in the future. Not a bunch of insurgents. However, admittedly I did not expand on the costs of the war in Iraq although they are fairly obvious, and include: supporting & supplying the vast numbers of troops there, including troop movements in and out of the country; maintaining and renewing military hardware: largely munitions but also tanks, helicopters and some aircraft; and supplying ammunition.

Speaking of the Vietnam war, spending on the entire Vietnam war – in today’s money – works out as $600 billion.
[Ref: Institute for Policy Studies, Case study http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/quagmire/].

Surpassing that cost figure would be yet another reason for withdrawing from Iraq as soon as possible, and why the US would NOT want to keep its troops there any longer than necessary.

Incidentally, I was interested to see you referred to those that “lost” the war in Vietnam as “we”. I had not realised you were an American citizen?

So, I say again, I do not believe the US wants to stay in Iraq for ever. Your only argument for it seems to be the fact that they are “building several permanent bases”:

And yes, the US does want to stay in Iraq, for ever, is the reason, why they are building several permanent bases, and a US embassy in Baghdad, that has the largest number of personnel, which is over 3,000 at one of Saddams Palaces.

Well, if this is indeed the case (no citation made) then this does not mean anything. Supporting the US military machine must be a logistical nightmare, so I am not surprised that they are building some bases. These might be given to the Iraqi military after the withdrawal…. And anyway the cost of these bases is surely an insignificant loss should the military withdraw any time soon.

And given that there are currently some 132,000 US troops in Iraq
[Ref: http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm]
then basing 3,000 at the US embassy doesn’t sound that many at all to me.

I agree that Bush has made a mess of it all, and you may be right about his tactics (as in how he plans to resolve the situation) although personally I think he is hoping for “one final shock” to leave the US in a position where it can finally start to reduce troop numbers.

And regarding the possibility of a Civil War….

But of course, if they can't beat bunch of "rag tags" imagine what will happen, if all of Iraq, turned against the Americans. The Shites want all they can get for themselves...the OIL. They hope the Americans get a "bloody nose" and leave, so that they can start the civil war officially

Yes, I believe you are correct about the aspirations of some Shi’ite leaders (note: don’t call them “Shites” that is another way of saying “shits” in English and I’m sure they would be offended if they thought you were calling them a bunch of “shits”). They are the majority and would want to dominate the Sunni minority. But then there are also the Kurds, which might try and form a Kurdish state of their own incorporating part of Iraq, Syria and Turkey: something these latter two would certainly not be willing to tolerate. However note that I think that would, at least, keep Syria relatively “busy” if civil war did break out in Iraq.

I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make here, though. If the point is that the US won’t leave because of the resulting civil war and the influence of Iran, well I’m not sure. I can’t see a situation where the US will leave “completely” any time soon, but I can see a situation where pressures at home will force a drastic reduction in current US military presence. Currently the US just seems to be fighting forces that are rebelling specifically against the US. And hence that doesn’t seem to be getting Iraq or any other nation anywhere in the long run.

Finally…

if you don't think the USA is in a lot of trouble, then I don't know what to say to you.

I don’t know why you seem to think that I don’t believe the US is “in a lot of trouble”. I agree that it is, one way or the other. I don’t think I ever suggested I thought otherwise? Perhaps your final sentence was directed at other readers than myself?

Kind Regards,
Pete

[Kikapu]

Hi Kikapu,

I only just noticed your reply. Anyway, as I currently cannot sleep I will take some time to respond.

First of all, let me ask you from where you get this figure of 800 billion USD for spending on the war in Iraq (and Afghanistan)? Please quote your source. The only figures I could obtain were between $500 and $550 billion for the entire spending on the “war on terror”.

And please do not insult your readers by saying we cannot understand what a “billion” is. First thing to say is that you are (correctly) quoting the US / economic billion, i.e a “thousand million”, and not the traditional British definition of a “million million”. But please, whilst it is an incomprehensible amount to imagine sitting there in e.g loose change, we can all deal with the figure as a relative amount.

Is it a lot of money ($800 billion, or even $500 billion)? Yes and no. Consider, for example:

* due to procurement and R & D costs, a SINGLE B2 stealth bomber aeroplane cost the American taxpayer $2 billion [Ref: “Skunk Works”, Ben R. Rich (former head of Lockheed’s secret “Skunk Works” development unit) & Leo Janos] (funded by the CIA’s “black budget” program).

* A single Nimitz class aircraft carrier costs $22 billion to run, through its entire life (with or without the Iraq war!) [Ref: Federation of American Scientists Military Analysis Network, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/cvn-68.htm]

* The entire US defence budget for 2007 was some $439.3 billion [Ref: Official White House information, http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/defense.html]

* The US national debt currently stands at $8.7 trillion and is currently increasing by an average of $1.47 billion every single day! [Ref: US National Debt Clock, http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/]

As I said, I am sure you will find the spending on the war in Iraq will be dwarfed, in time, by total budget spending (including R&D costs) as a result of countering the threat from “rogue” and other hostile states to the US in the future. Not a bunch of insurgents. However, admittedly I did not expand on the costs of the war in Iraq although they are fairly obvious, and include: supporting & supplying the vast numbers of troops there, including troop movements in and out of the country; maintaining and renewing military hardware: largely munitions but also tanks, helicopters and some aircraft; and supplying ammunition.

Speaking of the Vietnam war, spending on the entire Vietnam war – in today’s money – works out as $600 billion.
[Ref: Institute for Policy Studies, Case study http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/quagmire/].

Surpassing that cost figure would be yet another reason for withdrawing from Iraq as soon as possible, and why the US would NOT want to keep its troops there any longer than necessary.

Incidentally, I was interested to see you referred to those that “lost” the war in Vietnam as “we”. I had not realised you were an American citizen?

So, I say again, I do not believe the US wants to stay in Iraq for ever. Your only argument for it seems to be the fact that they are “building several permanent bases”:

And yes, the US does want to stay in Iraq, for ever, is the reason, why they are building several permanent bases, and a US embassy in Baghdad, that has the largest number of personnel, which is over 3,000 at one of Saddams Palaces.

Well, if this is indeed the case (no citation made) then this does not mean anything. Supporting the US military machine must be a logistical nightmare, so I am not surprised that they are building some bases. These might be given to the Iraqi military after the withdrawal…. And anyway the cost of these bases is surely an insignificant loss should the military withdraw any time soon.

And given that there are currently some 132,000 US troops in Iraq
[Ref: http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm]
then basing 3,000 at the US embassy doesn’t sound that many at all to me.

I agree that Bush has made a mess of it all, and you may be right about his tactics (as in how he plans to resolve the situation) although personally I think he is hoping for “one final shock” to leave the US in a position where it can finally start to reduce troop numbers.

And regarding the possibility of a Civil War….

But of course, if they can't beat bunch of "rag tags" imagine what will happen, if all of Iraq, turned against the Americans. The Shites want all they can get for themselves...the OIL. They hope the Americans get a "bloody nose" and leave, so that they can start the civil war officially

Yes, I believe you are correct about the aspirations of some Shi’ite leaders (note: don’t call them “Shites” that is another way of saying “shits” in English and I’m sure they would be offended if they thought you were calling them a bunch of “shits”). They are the majority and would want to dominate the Sunni minority. But then there are also the Kurds, which might try and form a Kurdish state of their own incorporating part of Iraq, Syria and Turkey: something these latter two would certainly not be willing to tolerate. However note that I think that would, at least, keep Syria relatively “busy” if civil war did break out in Iraq.

I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make here, though. If the point is that the US won’t leave because of the resulting civil war and the influence of Iran, well I’m not sure. I can’t see a situation where the US will leave “completely” any time soon, but I can see a situation where pressures at home will force a drastic reduction in current US military presence. Currently the US just seems to be fighting forces that are rebelling specifically against the US. And hence that doesn’t seem to be getting Iraq or any other nation anywhere in the long run.

Finally…

if you don't think the USA is in a lot of trouble, then I don't know what to say to you.

I don’t know why you seem to think that I don’t believe the US is “in a lot of trouble”. I agree that it is, one way or the other. I don’t think I ever suggested I thought otherwise? Perhaps your final sentence was directed at other readers than myself?

Kind Regards,
Pete

Pete_D,

Sorry for not answering earlier, but not too much time, and since you took the time to give me a lenghty response, I believe, I owe you a response back.

Most of the stuff I write on the forum, is the condensed version of information that I gather from different sources, therefore I do not always have a "direct source" to quote for you. Lets just say, I'm cutting away the fat and giving you the "fillet" instead.

The $800 Billion figure I gave you, as stated, was to cover 07 and 08, and into 09. The $500 Billion that you gave correctly, is the amount up to now. Trust me, the amount of money spent in the home front, the "war on terror" is peanuts in comparison to what we are spending in Iraq, and small amount in Afghanistan.

As for my nationality (ties), I belong to the select ABC Nations, and I do not mean, the ABC islands in the Caribbean Sea ( Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao) as nice as they are. No, I'm an American, British and Cypriot (born).

[miltiades]

More than 70 innocent civilians indiscriminately Killed on a bombing attack on an Indian train today with scores injured. What drives these sick perverted sub human savages to commit such horrific crimes, no doubt Cyperzokyli as well as the other philosopher amongst us will have an answer to this latest carnage. American finger perhaps , but what else can these poor savages do but kill innocent humans , I hear Cyper say.
Mate listen to me , these bastards are the same sick savages that are killing innocent Iraqis daily , the only encouragement they get are from perverted individuals who share their sick ideology.
ps , America is not in India.