Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alasya]

brother

Can i just jump in and say some TC like my family lost substantial properties in the south and have accepted NOTHING in the north and await the day the south stops holding it for ransom and lets us have our properties back.

Thieving ROC is a sham, if they are legitimate then start acting like it.

my family are the same. kibrisin neresindensin?

[brother]

My dad's family from TOHNI and mum from ISERGI(I HOPE I SPELT THAT RIGHT)

[Alexandros Lordos]

Turkcyp,

I am beginning to understand your perspective ...

If I am getting you correctly, your problem is not with GCs being a minority voter group in the TC state, but with the TC equality in the senate gradually being eroded, by the election of GCs as TC state senators ...

... you are worried that the current restriction in the Annan Plan based on ethnicity will just not hold in European Law, and you are seeking a way around that ...

I think though that your proposed solution does not solve the problem either ... if a GC lives in the north for ten years but is told that he cannot become a full citizen of the TC constituent state, just because he happens to speak Greek, that's when the European Courts will step in ...

Any way you cut it, if there is going to be a solution that preserves bizonality and political equality for the Turkish Cypriots, it is impossible to avoid derogations from EU law ...

... if you fear that the terms of the solution will later be overturned, then we should tackle the problem at its root and insist that the terms of the solution become primary law within the EU ... as far as I am concerned, it is only fair that the TCs get such guarantees, just as we demand our own guarantees for the withdrawal of Turksih troops and the return of territory ...

[Alexandros Lordos]

Brother,

I think your comment dispels the myth that it is only GCs who care about getting their property back, and that all TCs no longer care about their own properties ...

I believe we would all ( GCs and TCs ) be happier with a solution where as much property as possible is returned to its original owners ....

Is your mum's village Ay Sergis? (near Famagusta?) If so, then we are from the same village ...

[brother]

If i am not wrong currently any TC that have stayed behind in south since 1974 have NO voting rights, thats 30 years with no voice, so whats the E.U doing about that then, i will tell you, square root of F*** all.

[Alexandros Lordos]

If i am not wrong currently any TC that have stayed behind in south since 1974 have NO voting rights, thats 30 years with no voice, so whats the E.U doing about that then, i will tell you, square root of F*** all.

Hey brother,

it's all going to be ugly until we solve this stupid problem ...

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alexandros, I wonder what you think about my proposal for political equality... Would you have a look at the thread "political equality for all" and tell me your opinions.

OK, I'll read it and let you know what I think ...

[insan]

Thanx for your interests

[turkcyp]

Turkcyp,

I am beginning to understand your perspective ...

If I am getting you correctly, your problem is not with GCs being a minority voter group in the TC state, but with the TC equality in the senate gradually being eroded, by the election of GCs as TC state senators ...

... you are worried that the current restriction in the Annan Plan based on ethnicity will just not hold in European Law, and you are seeking a way around that ...

Exactly. Not that I am worried, actually I am pretty sure it will not hold so.

I think though that your proposed solution does not solve the problem either ... if a GC lives in the north for ten years but is told that he cannot become a full citizen of the TC constituent state, just because he happens to speak Greek, that's when the European Courts will step in ...

This is where you have understood me. I have never said that they can not become full citizen. I know that you can restrict that. Actually this is what I have said when I have mentioned that federal citizenship always supercedes state citizenship, and you can not restrict that.

I believe my exact word were like

"It is really interesting that you would accept permanent limitation on GCs becoming TC state citizen. Frankly I thought this was a No- No for most GCs that is why I was proposing other ways of eliminating this permanent restriction. So that they can come to TC state at higher amounts with limited political rights, at the national level (state and federal). And also this kind of permanent restrictions would be illegal aswell in the long run. Because the federal citizenship is what supercedes state citizenship, and you can not restrict changing citizenship of one state to another permanently. It simply is not legal."

This is why I am suggesting dual state citizenship for the GCs that move to TC state, and participating in the state and federal political life in the GC state. That seems to me the only legal way around.

Any way you cut it, if there is going to be a solution that preserves bizonality and political equality for the Turkish Cypriots, it is impossible to avoid derogations from EU law ...

... if you fear that the terms of the solution will later be overturned, then we should tackle the problem at its root and insist that the terms of the solution become primary law within the EU ... as far as I am concerned, it is only fair that the TCs get such guarantees, just as we demand our own guarantees for the withdrawal of Turksih troops and the return of territory ...

The permanent derogations from the EU law is very very rare, and in law actually it is not even determined of they are legally acceptable. For example, EU said to Turkey that we may consider "permanent derogations on your Turkish mobility". Many people in Turkey is not that worried about that because there are strong arguments about the legality of permanent derogations in both EU law, and in also and most importantly "Human Rights Law".

So although I agree that that making these derogations permanent may be a way to solve the issue at the root as you have suggested (and also realize that I have suggested this as well in my initial post as a way to solve the problem) but it will be very very hard to make these derogations permanent in EU in practicality. Because literally every member of EU has to agree on the agreement individually and together as a council.

And also as I have said legality of "permanent derogations” has never been tested in EU courts yet. In fact in the last round of accession many permanent derogations that Malta has asked about property rights has been very much rejected by the EU officials, claiming that permanent derogations may be found illegal in EU courts and ECHR as well. So what they end up giving Malta was extended derogations but never permanent one.

That is my only fear. Other than that if we can find a way of securing the federal equality at the senate for the next 30-50 years I would say than I have no problem with your proposals.

May be derogations as long as 30 years but not permanent can be accepted by EU courts, but again this is not tested and may be deemed to long and be considered as permanent derogation.

But again advice from other legal sources may enlighten us on this matter more clearly I guess,

I am really being frank and trying to explain my fears about the sustainability of the agreement with sincerity. I do not believe that we would fail to find a common ground if we are sincere.

Have a good day,

p.s. About property, I would give my asnwer shortly. But realize that among the 10 things you have listed property issue was ranked number 9th in importance, and I do not think that will create a very sticky position for many GCs if majority of the rest of thier demands are satisfied.

Among the 10 suggestion, I have accepted 4 unconditionally, accepted 5 with a twist, and only rejected 1. And even that rejection can be overcomed if we further talk about it I guess. But let me write my comments about the property issue, now that I have understood that you are not suggesting some unacceptable things for TCs.

[Alexandros Lordos]

May be derogations as long as 30 years but not permanent can be accepted by EU courts, but again this is not tested and may be deemed to long and be considered as permanent derogation.

Would you be content with a Senate Equality that is not permanent? Would other TCs also feel the same way?

If all you need is a temporary derogation, I am sure that is not too difficult to arrange ... and if you want something more secure, it can be a derogation that will be put to referendum of the TC community 15 years from now, and then every 15 years after that, until they freely decide to abolish it ...

But again advice from other legal sources may enlighten us on this matter more clearly I guess,

Yes, I do suspect that we are in way over our heads on this one

p.s. About property, I would give my asnwer shortly. But realize that among the 10 things you have listed property issue was ranked number 9th in importance, and I do not think that will create a very sticky position for many GCs if majority of the rest of thier demands are satisfied.

Among the 10 suggestion, I have accepted 4 unconditionally, accepted 5 with a twist, and only rejected 1. And even that rejection can be overcomed if we further talk about it I guess. But let me write my comments about the property issue, now that I have understood that you are not suggesting some unacceptable things for TCs.

I am aware that you were very constructive concerning all other points, I am sorry if I sounded like I ignored them ... I will respond to all other items ... well, tomorrow probably (my wife thinks I have been sitting at the computer way too long )

Be aware though that Property can not be easily brushed aside ... my list of 10 points does not end with "matters of secondary importance", all ten are critical to large majorities of GCs.

The matters of secondary importance are not at all on my list, they are things like not having permanent residence limits, being able to purchase property sooner and so on. You can find the percents for these secondary items in my full report ...