Cyprus-Forum.com

[pantelis]

I have asked the following question, the other day:

How does your logic on the Cyprus issues apply to the issues raised with the elections in Ukraine?

Any ideas Erol and Piratis?

[erolz]

You have to decide, do you want unity, or separation and partition.

What I want is a federal system. Two equal component states united in a single country. Easy really.

It is pretty clear to me that you are trying to wrap the illegal partition (which has always been your dream but you failed to realize it), into a cover of some pseudo unity, which actually has nothing to do with real unity. This is why no other system in EU or even the US federal system is good enough for you. Because those are single countries and what you are trying for is two countries which will be united just be the name and nothing more.

Its interesting that you know what I dream of. For you any federal system is a 'pseudo unity'. For you unity and democracy actualy just mean a Cyprus under the sole effective control of GC and thus any proposed solution that does not deliver effective control of all of Cyrpus to the GC community is anti democratic and 'psudo unity'. In effective you could make that your definitions of democracy and unity (in terms of cyprus). Anything that delivers effective control to the GC community is 'democratic' and leads to 'unity' and anything that does not is not. You would rather divide the island in two than accept any degree of equality between the two communites. I have never said that I do not accept any other existing federal system - I do not know enough details of these federal systems and I also accept that Cyprus' situation is different and therefore probably needs a unique federal system. However I would (from what little I know of it) accept the USA system, provided there is protection for each compnenet state from becomming dominated by GC. Would you accept such a system?

[erolz]

I have asked the following question, the other day:

How does your logic on the Cyprus issues apply to the issues raised with the elections in Ukraine?

Any ideas Erol and Piratis?

I know too little of the situation in Ukraine to be able to offer any sensible comment. Sorry. Was there an election there recently? Are their two distinct ehtnic groups there? Are there similarites with Cyprus and if so what are they?

However if you could explain your thoughts then perhaps I might be able to comment?

[Piratis]

As far as I know in Ukraine none of the two main groups forced the other out of their homes and property. So I don't believe the two can be comparable.

[pantelis]

Do some research, it is is very interesting!

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/ar ... 2003217319


http://news.google.com/news?q=ukraine+e ... n&ie=UTF-8

[KELEBEK]

Piratis

You have to decide, do you want unity, or separation and partition.

How about in between?



erolz

Where does it say that for one organised group (GC) to exert and force it will on another organised group (TC) is anyhting other than oppression?

Her zaman gibi cok guzel konusuyorsun.

Piratis

It is pretty clear to me that you are trying to wrap the illegal partition (which has always been your dream but you failed to realize it), into a cover of some pseudo unity, which actually has nothing to do with real unity. This is why no other system in EU or even the US federal system is good enough for you. Because those are single countries and what you are trying for is two countries which will be united just be the name and nothing more.

Federalism does not mean partition, thst just a figment of your wild imagination. It has not ever been a T/C aim to divide Cyprus, you people pushed our people into enclaves by the acts of genocide your countrymen committed.

We were happy to accept the Swiss federal system which is what Annan plan 5 was based on, 65% of our people voted for it, but your people rejected it, not ours.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I wonder how many times we have discussed majority rule vs equality of communities in this forum ... it seems we can't resist the temptation!

Kelebek, are you aware that under the Annan Plan Greek troops would have remained in Cyprus FOREVER (950 Greek soldiers vs 650 Turkish soldiers)?

I fully agree with you that all Greek troops must leave, but Turkish troops must leave as well ...

[insan]

I wonder how many times we have discussed majority rule vs equality of communities in this forum

Yes we discussed this issue so many times and both communities leadership have been discussing it for more than 80 years... The point here is despite all of the discussions on this issue; could we manage to reach to a common ground. Obviously no!

So what we gonna do? Either we gonna keep discussing it or forget about it then focus something else... and that is an agreed partition.

[Piratis]

How about in between?

Sure, two states in everything except the name. As much "unity" as is needed so TCs will enter the EU and suck our money. Thats your "in between" right?

We were happy to accept the Swiss federal system which is what Annan plan 5 was based on

There is no Swiss federal system. What they have there is confederation. This is not what I say, this is what the Swiss themselves say: http://www.admin.ch

However, even in the confederal Switzerland the cantons are closer together than what is proposed in Annan plan. For example The central government in Switzerland is above the cantons, but this is not the case in Annan plan.

So the Annan partition plan has nothing to do with federation, is based on a confederation, but is even more loose than the confederation that is based on, making it just an association of two separate countries.

So what we gonna do? Either we gonna keep discussing it or forget about it then focus something else... and that is an agreed partition.

For a partition to be agreed TCs must keep no more than 18%, I don't think anybody can argue that in case of partition this percentage would not be the "less unfair". If you don't agree on this, then we will keep discussing it forever (or until the balance of power will change)

[KELEBEK]

PIRATES

Sure, two states in everything except the name. As much "unity" as is needed so TCs will enter the EU and suck our money. Thats your "in between" right?

Suck "your" money! Excuse me? Since G/C illegally took over the Cyprus govt in 1964 they have used every cent of international aid and loans on their own community, even though we were meant to be power-sharing at the time and even before 1974. Correction! It is our money, and you`ve been sucking it for decades.

You really should look up the term "Federalism" in a standard sized dictionary! Then you would learn what this means. What you say at the moment implies ignorance.

There is no Swiss federal system. What they have there is confederation. This is not what I say, this is what the Swiss themselves say: http://www.admin.ch

No, no, no. Dont fall into this trap! Switzerland is not a confederation, there is no living example of a confederation. Switzerland used to be one until about 1860, then it became a federation but it kept the name "Confederation" for prestige.

"After the last civil war of 1847, the loose confederation of states was replaced by a soundly structured federal state, in which, however, the autonomy of the cantons and communities was largely maintained. Many parts of the present Swiss Federal Constitution still correspond to the first modern version of 1848".

http://www.eda.admin.ch/singapore_emb/e ... /root.html

However, even in the confederal Switzerland the cantons are closer together than what is proposed in Annan plan. For example The central government in Switzerland is above the cantons, but this is not the case in Annan plan.

This is no different to what is proposed in the Annan plan, have you read it?

So the Annan partition plan has nothing to do with federation, is based on a confederation, but is even more loose than the confederation that is based on, making it just an association of two separate countries.

Wrong! Try again! The last fifth Annan plan does not even mention "federal", let alone "confederal", I dont know how you came to that conclusion.

Even though I was the against the plan myself, I prefer partition, I think facts are facts.

For a partition to be agreed TCs must keep no more than 18%, I don't think anybody can argue that in case of partition this percentage would not be the "less unfair". If you don't agree on this, then we will keep discussing it forever (or until the balance of power will change)

If it means permenant partition then I may well agree to this.