Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Is it me? Am I wrong? As you have said surely the very nature of a federal system is that decisions are not just based on a simplistic 'one person one vote' accross all the federal components? Why then does it seem like there are some arguing for a federal system but refute the idea of TC having 'four times (or five times according to some) the 'voting power' of GC on ANY issue or political instituion?

No you are not wrong, and yes, it is an odd and inconsistent argument. I never understood it myself. Perhaps some people should come forward and acknowledge that what they want is a unitary state with two separate districts, rather than a bizonal federation. Then at least we would all understand what each other was saying.

[Piratis]

Does "federation" implies restrictions on settlement with full political rights?

Does "federation" gives a blocking power on everything to any state?

There are two things:

a) What federation can include and what not.

b) There are different forms of federation, and when I say I accept federation it doesn't mean I accept just about any federation is invented.

In any case, we can forget words for a while.

TCs want a sovereign area where they will be able to run just by themselves, and at the same time they want to have a blocking power on everything for the whole Cyprus. This for me is not acceptable, whatever you name it. It is worst than a standard partition where TCs keep 18% of land. This is because such thing has all the negatives of a standard partition PLUS a lot more negatives, without having any major advantage over standard partition (for GCs).

[insan]

TCs want a sovereign area where they will be able to run just by themselves, and at the same time they want to have a blocking power on everything for the whole Cyprus. This for me is not acceptable, whatever you name it.

And GCs also want a sovereign area where they will be able to run just by themselves, and at the same time they want to have a blocking power on everything for the whole Cyprus. This for me is not acceptable, whatever you name it...

[Piratis]

And GCs also want a sovereign area where they will be able to run just by themselves, and at the same time they want to have a blocking power on everything for the whole Cyprus. This for me is not acceptable, whatever you name it...

Nop. The majority of Cypriots want that.

[insan]

Majority of Cypriots consist of GCs. Majority rule = GCs rule.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Does "federation" implies restrictions on settlement with full political rights?

Piratis, in the case of Cyprus I do not see how it can be any different, at least temporarily. It would have to be a special application of the federal model, to take into account the historical grievances and fears of the two sides. Can you see a different model that would actually work and be acceptable to all concerned?

[Piratis]

Piratis, in the case of Cyprus I do not see how it can be any different, at least temporarily. It would have to be a special application of the federal model, to take into account the historical grievances and fears of the two sides.

So what you suggest is to change the usual federation to make it more applicable under the circumstances. I could agree with this, but as you said in other post a federation should balance the power between states and people. Such move (restriction of settlement with full political rights) disturbs this balance. I can agree for this change, but what I am asking is for something in return that is needed to keep the balance that federations should have.

Can you see a different model that would actually work and be acceptable to all concerned

Why, have you seen anything acceptable to both sides so far? I believe what I have suggested in the past could be acceptable for both sides. The problem is that the TCs believe that by using the power of Turkey and her allies they can force us on something unfair for their benefit.

Therefore, under the current balance of power I highly doubt an agreement could be found. Our strategy should focus for the medium to long term.

[-mikkie2-]

Alexandre

My bone of contention is that the rights of the refugees should not be compromised. Refugees should be given the choice as to what to do with their property.

I would not mind temporary restrictions to allow for a smooth integration of our two communities. That can be done and as confidence grows between our two communities then things can be brought back to normality. You also know my view that economic integration is the key to bringing security and prosperity to all.

What I do mind is for us to have a permanent separation and for the rights of Cypriots to be compromised in their own land in order to achive that separation.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Mikkie2, Piratis,

I think that the best we can insist on in future negotiations, is for a generous quota for return of GCs under TC administration - not the stingy quota we have now. In actual practice, this will amount to full freedom of residence, because, if the quota is lets say 33% of total TC population, that could be 75,000 to 100,000 GCs allowed to relocate to the north (with voting rights, not as second-home residents). Though this is more or less the same in practice as full freedom of residence, it will be psychologically more palatable to TCs who will be freed from the insecurity that they will become a minority in "their own state".

By the time we fill this quota, maybe 2-3 decades, we might all have matured beyond the point of needing special safeguards and derogations. So my view is, let's start with what we can do now, even if it is "legally imperfect", and it can only get better with time ...

Better, because through the friction of daily life individual human rights will become more and more important, while the obsession with collective identity will become less and less important ... so long as we get a "melting pot" started from now ...

[erolz]

TCs want a sovereign area where they will be able to run just by themselves, and at the same time they want to have a blocking power on everything for the whole Cyprus. This for me is not acceptable, whatever you name it. It is worst than a standard partition where TCs keep 18% of land. This is because such thing has all the negatives of a standard partition PLUS a lot more negatives, without having any major advantage over standard partition (for GCs).

I have tried to be as clear as I can from my personal point of view.

What I want is for any decision that affects TC differently to how GC are affected for there to be a requirement of consent from the TC community before such a decsion can be put into force (and visa versa). Is that really so unreasonable? Personaly I would consider solutions that gave such a protection to the TC community that did not involve bi zonality, with free movement and residency of any cypriot anywhere - but understand why this is a concern for many other TC.

As far as I can tell your idea of an acceptable 'federation' is one where TC will have a right to block decsions only on a small set of pre defined issues. In what way is this 'federal'?