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Nationality vs. Ethnicity

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Viewpoint » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:11 pm

Simon wrote:What an absolute load of rubbish! I laugh every time I hear that Greek Cypriots attemped to ethnically cleanse TCs from Cyprus. In the inter-communal conflict, several hundred TCs died; hundreds of GCs also died. Where is the ethnic cleansing? TCs went into enclaves for many reasons, partly to prepare for partition. Turkey did not invade until 1974, therefore, GCs had ten years to substantially reduce the TC population, which was not all that big in any event. Surely it would not have been that difficult for four-fifths of the population to eradicate the other one-fifth over a period of more than 10 years if there was a concerted, vigorous ethnic cleansing policy. After all, the Turkish army managed removing 200,000 in next to no time. But did the TC population dramatically reduce by mass killings? :roll:

What I do accept is that there was a number of nationalists on each side that did fight during this period and others may have got dragged in. However, to then magnify this and state that Greek Cypriots generally tried to ethnically cleanse TCs is ridiculous.


The UN was in the way.
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Postby miltiades » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:19 pm

BIR WROTE

""""I am 55 years old,still young enough to have another life,perhaps as a writer and journalist ,in a reunited Cyprus. How do I know that a poor misguided sod of 17 will not shoot me like Hrant Dink in Turkey?Well,I don't.And it could easily happen.Will I still go ahead and take the risk for the sake of my country? Yes,I would. Because my spirit is dying a little bit every day in this country where materialism, mediocrity, drinking,sport , racism and bigotry are the national pastimes,nomatter what the glossy appearances. I see no better way to go than chasing a dream for the good of my motherland..."""""
I take my hat off to you Sir , my respect for you has reached such high levels , were you to be in a political party made up of Cypriots , you Bir will have my vote in Presidential elections. Some thing I have said many times that my vision is before I pass away to see a T/C as the president of Cyprus elected by the people and working for the people. Your views are , and pardon my daring to compare my self to you , on par with yours , one Cypriot much the same as another.Those that criticize your views and mine and reticule our devotion to the Cypriot identity , that of the G/C and T/C , are to me a complete antithesis of what a Cypriot should be. They are constantly engineering conflict scenarios in order to lure the people into believing that the Cypriots can not live in peace on our island .The assertion that in a united Cyprus the T/Cs would be assimilated into the G/C majority is a mere figment of their sad and and unimaginative persona created by what I would call self imposed stupidity.
Hung around for a bit longer my friend , Cyprus needs you .

Ps>Lena my apologies havent had time to work out the quote mode , but will do soon.
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Postby Simon » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:54 pm

Zan said:

[quote]So the Armenians cancel out the TCs is that it?

Have you ever read any of the news reports and the UN reports and the British reports???[/quote]

No, they don't cancel out anything; just showing you Turkish double standards. I notice that you keep referring to "reports." What reports? Show me one official, impartial govermental or UN Report which states the GC population tried to ethnically cleanse TCs? Or does it just say inter-communal fighting? Once again, if there was a universal attempt to ethnically cleanse TCs over a period of over ten years, very few of you would have been left.


shahmaran said:

[quote]Armenians died during a big war, GCs got ethnicaly clensed during a war, TCs got massacared in a massive campaign!

There is the difference Simon! go do some more reasearch and come back![/quote]

Oh my god what a complete idiot! I can't believe I'm even replying to the mentally disturbed. TCs got massacred in a massive campaign? That's why only hundreds died on each side? Armenians died in a big war? My God you need to revisit history and seek an impartial historian.

VP, the UN was in the way? Therefore there was no sustained period of ethnic cleansing by GCs then was there? According to Zan, the UN were helpless to prevent the blood-thirsty GCs. :roll:
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Postby zan » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:23 pm

GREEK ATTACKS 1963 - 1968
INTRODUCTION In September 1963 the Greeks were drawing up a plan of action aiming at abolishing the so-called `excessive rights' of Turkish Cypriots by `unilateral action' creating a fait accompli. According to Clerides, this would have been achieved by the implementation of the Akritas Plan prepared by a select committee including the Interior Minister, ex-EOKA Commander Yiorgadjis (Akritas). The Akritas plan, he says, declared that unalterable objective of the Greeks "was to free the people of Cyprus [meaning the Greeks] from the Treaty of Guarantee and Alliance, so that we [the Greeks] would be free to exercise the right of self-determination (Enosis)." Clerides, op. cit, p.207 He adds that any attempt by the Greeks to return to the policy of self-determination - Enosis, had to pass through the process of amendments of the Agreements. Clerides has been very clear about the decision of the Greek Cypriot leadership to abolish the Agreements. He stated that, as far as the Greek Cypriots were concerned, "They resented their existence, because they barred the way to self-determination - Enosis. Therefore the Greek Cypriots were ready and willing to struggle for their abolition." Ibid, p.210 36
The interior Minister, Yiorgadjis, started recruiting suitable Volunteers for his paramilitary force, selected from the ex-EOKA fighters by himself. Apart from this, there had been two more paramilitary forces. One formed by the socialist leader, the personal physician of Makarios, Dr. Vasos Lyssarides, the other was formed under Nikos Sampson, the notorious EOKA-gunman. Clerides reveals that "both of these paramilitary forces were created with the consent of Makarios." Ibid, p. 219 The forces of the secret Akritas Organization were stationed particularly at places in close proximity to Turkish villages. The late Professor Richard A. Patrick who was one of the leading authorities on the Cyprus problem stated earlier than Clerides that, "in 1962 weapons-training for company-sized units was being conducted in the Trodos Mountains under the guidance of the Greek Cypriot officers of the Cyprus Army and using arms `borrowed' from Government armories. By December 1963, there were up to 10,000 Greek Cypriots who had been received and trained to some extent." Patrick Richard A, Political Geography and the Cyprus Conflict, 1963-1971 (Contario 1976) pp. 37-38. Clerides accepts that "The training of the Akritas forces was undertaken by officers of the Greek contingent stationed in Cyprus and its plans of action, both defensive and offensive, were worked out at military exercises carried out at various places. The major exercise was carried out for three days in the Trodos mountains and the headquarters of the force during that exercise was at the President Makarios's official residence in Trodos." Clerides, op. cit p. 220 According to Prof Patrick, elements of the Greek Cypriot police and a number of Greek Cypriot irregulars were attempting to irritate the Turkish elements into action in December 1963. He believes that "had the incident of 21 December in the Tahtakale quarter of Nicosia not occurred, there can be no doubt that a similar incident would have been precipitated by Christmas." Patrick, R.A, op. cit, p. 38 The submission of the 13 points of amendment at the end of November 1963 created a major constitutional crisis, which in turn led to renewed inter-communal fighting, as foreseen and planned by the Akritas Plan. This crisis came at a very inopportune time. Turkey was facing a government crisis and in Greece premier Karamanlis, "who had exercised a restraining influence on Makarios" had resigned in June 1963. Prof. Pierre Oberling, The Road to Bellapais, The Turkish Cypriot Exodus to Northern Cyprus (New York, 1982) p.84 Averoff says that, Makarios considered this situation in his favour and changed his course. Without consulting the new Greek Government he adopted the policy he had long been contemplating, "the policy which he thought most advantageous to Cyprus (the Greek Cypriot side). ...Within two months tragedy and disaster had struck. Blood flowed freely, flames enveloped island more than ever before. ... One after another, however, the opportunities were missed. Jingoism, demagogy, stupidity, moral cowardice, all led the beloved island further down the slippery slope, until at last it succumbed to the criminal intervention of mainland Greece on 15 July, 1974. ... And so all our efforts ended in catastrophe." Averoff, op. cit, p.430 37
THE CHRISTMAS BLOODSHED General Karayannis, the Commander of the Greek Cypriot National Guard reveals that when the Turks objected to the constitutional amendment, Archbishop Makarios put his plan into effect and the Greek attack on Turks began in December 1963. On 21 December, Greeks launched their planned major attack on Turkish civilians. The incident which was used as a pretext had taken place in the Tahtakale quarter of Nicosia which was shared by Turks and Greeks. When a Turkish woman refused to be searched bodly by a Greek male who had not even produced any convincing evidence that he was a policeman and while a crowd of Turks were gathered to protest this action the `Constables' of Yiorgadjis opened fire cutting the Turkish couple in half. This slaughter was used as starting signal for further firing on Turkish civilian targets indiscriminately, including the statue of Atatürk, near Kyrenia gate, and even Lycee students, in the Turkish quarter of Nicosia. Turkish Cypriot leader Dr. Küçük appealed for calm, but the CBC, the Greek controlled state radio, did not broadcast his statement. Authors like Robert Stephens, H. Scott Gibbons, H.D. Purcell, Prof. Oberling and many foreign journalists vividly described the 1963-1964 assaults giving concrete evidence that the Christmas attacks of the Greeks were preplanned and their paramilitary and private armies were equipped with the arms and ammunition supplied by the Greek leadership whose intention was to change the state of affairs created by the Agreements, by use of all means, including force of arms. For instance, Robert Stephens, a British author observed: "There is no doubt that these forces were brought into action during the crisis and that part of them got out of control, resulting at one stage in a small but savage massacre." Robert Stephens, Cyprus, A place of Arms (Pall Mall press, London 1966) p. 181 .
Almost all foreign observes, had also jointly expressed almost identical views that, the Greek police were issued arms by the interior Minister, whereas the Turkish police had been disarmed the day before the fighting started; that the 21 st December incident and the following attacks on the Turks were "Obviously planned and premeditated." Reddaway, op. cit, p. 146 The result of the 1963-1964 Greek Cypriot attacks had been the destruction of 103 Turkish villages and over a thousand houses and shops. Over 25,000 Turkish Cypriots, almost one fourth of the total Turkish Cypriot people were uprooted from their homes and had become refugees. The Greek attacks, "clearly aimed at subjugating the Turks by a swift knock-out blow." Ibid, p. 147 As a matter of fact it was stated in the `Akritas Plan' that the Turks would be suppressed "immediately and forcefully." THE GREEK ONSLAUGHT The most dramatic and tragic Greek offensive was launched on the Christmas eve on the Turkish positions in Kumsal area of Nicosia and particularly on the mixed suburb of Kaymakli (Omorphita). The three children of a Turkish Major who was serving as a doctor in the Turkish mainland contingent and his wife were killed in the bathtub where they hide themselves. The Greek armed gangs riddled them with machine-gun bullets. At midday Sampson, Who was the leader of a notorious EOKA assassination group during 1950's, with his private militia made an all-out attack against the Turks of Küçük Kaymakli (Omorphita). They attacked with much superior weapons, including light anti-aircraft machine-guns. The Turkish Cypriots' resistance was exhausted and resulted in heavy losses. 700 Turkish hostages, mostly women and children were taken away by Sampson's gang and imprisoned in a Greek school.
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"The Greek irregulars ran wild, killing scores of Turks, including women and children, smashing and looting Turkish houses and taking hundreds of hostages". Here are a few selected pieces from the international press reporters who witnessed the Greek onslaught during the bloody Christmas days of 1963: "The 70 year old Turkish Imam of Omorphita was also killed together with his crippled son who were shot on sight". The following is how S. Gibbons described the Greek attacks on two Turkish villages of Mathiati and Kochatis: As the terrified Turks shuffled along, cowering from the blows from rifle butts, the mob rushed into the houses, dragged the blazing logs from the fireplaces and threw them at curtains and on beds. The wooden roof beams, dried out over many years, smoked then crackled into flames. Along the street the Turks were driven, dragging their wounded; women, many in their night dress and bare feet. Before some of the buildings had fully caught fire, groups of them dashed inside, smashing furniture and dishware, grabbing valuables and stuffing them them into their pockets. Terrified noises from behind the houses drew the attention of the attackers to the Turkish livestock. Breaking into the barns, they machine-gunned milk cows, goats and sheep. Hens were thrown into the air and blasted by bullets as they squawked and fluttered, their pathetic bodies exploding in feathered puffs. The mob roared in blood-crazed delirium. The Turks were driven out of the village, along the freezing open road. Near the next village, Kochatis, an all Turkish area the tormented refugees were left. While the Turks of Kochatis rushed out to help their neighbours, the mob... returned to Mathiati to continue their orgy of shooting, burning and pillaging". H. Scott Gibbons, Peace without Honour, p.10 INTERNATIONAL PRESS REPORTS "A few days ago 1,000 people lived here in the village of Skylloura. Then in a night of terror 350 men, women and children vanished. They were all Turks. ... In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios , a mile away, I counted 16 wrecked and burned homes, they were all Turkish. From this village more than 100 Turks also vanished; in neither village did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek house. Peter Moorehead, Daily Herald, 1.1.1964 "On the Greek Cypriot side they have preferred the fighting to continue, leading to the extermination of the Turkish Community." The Times, 4.1.1964 "On Christmas eve many Turkish people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes..." The Manchester Guardian 31.12.63 "It is clear that a conspiracy exists to wreck the constitution which if it was workable, is unworkable now. But this does not entitle Greek Cypriots to scrap the constitution and opt for Enosis. The Daily Telegraph, Editorial 2.1.1964 On the Christmas eve the 21 remaining Turkish Cypriot patients at the Nicosia General Hospital were taken away by the Greek armed men never again to be seen. MASS GRAVES In the evening Greek Cypriot terrorists raided Turkish and mixed villages near Nicosia and the Turkish inhabitants of Ayios Vasilios were brutally dragged away. Many of them were killed in cold blood and put in a mass grave. This mass grave was discovered on 13 January by the British truce force and the bodies of 21 Turkish Cypriot civilians were removed. The two sons, 19 and 17 years old, and the granddaughter aged 10, of a 70 year old Turk were lined up outside the cottage wall. The gunmen machine-gunned
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them to death. In another house, a 13-year old boy had his hands tied behind his knees and was thrown on the floor. While the house was being ransacked, his captors kicked and abused him. Then a pistol was placed at the back of his head and he was shot. Altogether, 12 Turks were massacred that evening in Ayios Vasilios. Then the gunmen turned their attention to the Turkish houses. They looted and destroyed, and finally, exhausted, they set the houses on fire. In isolated farmhouses in the same region, nine more Turks were murdered. Gibbons, Op. Cit, p.73 The non-stop attacks on the Turks Continued until the Turkish jet fighters flew low, over Nicosia and the Turkish Army Contingent left its barracks to take strategic positions. It was then that Makarios accepted to talk to the Turkish Cypriot leaders on the terms of a cease-fire, which was never fully implemented.
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Postby shahmaran » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:26 pm

Simon i dont know where the hell you are from but i do know that you sound like a complete retard!

You have no real basis in none of your claims what so ever, you sound like a complete advocate of the moronic exterme GC propaganda, there is no debating with you, you are worse then Pyr and Miltiades, at least they know their wrong doings, i dont know where the fuck you just appear from and deny this stuff! :lol: :lol:

I suggest you spend some time with Pyr and Miltiades so they can teach you "the ways" of this debate....:lol:


......or just read the above :roll:
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Postby Simon » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:56 pm

Thats rich coming from the man who claims that almost the whole Armenian race got wiped out by "one big war" whilst a few hundred TCs were killed by a "massive campaign" of ethnic cleansing by GCs. Laughable. You are so blinded by bias it is pathetic. I really feel sorry for you.

You are one of the biggest one-sided morons I've ever interacted with.

Zan, where does it say that GCs tried over a period of 10 years to ethnically cleanse TCs? This is mostly anecdotal evidence and author's opinion during inter-communal conflict. There was of course many occasions where TCs attacked GCs during this period also. This violence was carried out by a limited number of nationalists and not the population generally, as you would like people to believe. As stated previously, ethnic cleansing is usually evidenced by mass killings, i.e. over a million Armenians killed. So again I ask, if GCs attempted for over 10 years to exterminate TCs, why did only hundreds die, a SIMILAR AMOUNT ON BOTH SIDES?
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Postby miltiades » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:04 am

HA HA Wrote:
"""You have no real basis in none of your claims what so ever, you sound like a complete advocate of the moronic exterme GC propaganda, there is no debating with you, you are worse then Pyr and Miltiades, at least they know their wrong doings, i dont know where the fuck you just appear from and deny this stuff!

I suggest you spend some time with Pyr and Miltiades so they can teach you "the ways" of this debate.... """

I try hard not to exercise rigorous honesty but when faced with the most inarticulate moron with as much intelligence as a 10 year old I have to abandon the restrains of civil behaviour and tell this vulgar foul-mouthed ,brain dead punk to get lost .
I'm certain that you will soon find employment , road sweeper would most definitely suit you down to the GROUND!!
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:21 am

Simon wrote:VP, the UN was in the way? Therefore there was no sustained period of ethnic cleansing by GCs then was there? According to Zan, the UN were helpless to prevent the blood-thirsty GCs. :roll:


The Gcs were not able to carry out what they intended which was getting rid of the TCs totally as the UN were onlookers and this deterred them from carrying out a programe of complete anniahalation which sampson later wanted to complete. GCs used other ethnic cleansing methods to rid theselves of the TC obsticle this was just not by killing but also by economic strangalation and encouragement to emigrate which many TCs did just to survive.
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Postby shahmaran » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:29 am

Simon wrote:Thats rich coming from the man who claims that almost the whole Armenian race got wiped out by "one big war" whilst a few hundred TCs were killed by a "massive campaign" of ethnic cleansing by GCs. Laughable. You are so blinded by bias it is pathetic. I really feel sorry for you.

You are one of the biggest one-sided morons I've ever interacted with.

Zan, where does it say that GCs tried over a period of 10 years to ethnically cleanse TCs? This is mostly anecdotal evidence and author's opinion during inter-communal conflict. There was of course many occasions where TCs attacked GCs during this period also. This violence was carried out by a limited number of nationalists and not the population generally, as you would like people to believe. As stated previously, ethnic cleansing is usually evidenced by mass killings, i.e. over a million Armenians killed. So again I ask, if GCs attempted for over 10 years to exterminate TCs, why did only hundreds die, a SIMILAR AMOUNT ON BOTH SIDES?


oh yeah sorry we did go around wiping out a million armenians coz we just don like them thats clever simon, :lol: :lol:

hey miltiades dont think you went by unnoticed, how you feeling today old man ;)
Last edited by shahmaran on Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby andri_cy » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:30 am

Once again, can you guys discuss issues without name-calling? Sometimes this feels like babysitting...
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