Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Sure sure. We have little brain. TCs want unification and thats what they were trying to achieve all these years

sov·er·eign·ty:
1) Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
2) Royal rank, authority, or power.
3) Complete independence and self-government.
4) A territory existing as an independent state.

[brother]

Absolutely but its more than what GC were trying for.

[MicAtCyp]

If those are the sine qua non of Turkey then it is more than obvious that there will never be a solution because
a)The first one means almost 2 separate states
b)The Tcs who constituted 18% of the population and owned just 12% of the privately owned land want to have a minumim 29 % of it (compared with 37%) they occupy now
c)They want rights for military intervention, which for us is something like putting a wolf to watch the sheep.
d)Plus all other problems they will load on us like settlers, etc.

I know these were the sine qua nons of the Generals back in 2003. If these are still the sine qua nons of Ertogan I advice him to think twice and even thrice before revealing them to Europe. Because he will be asked to reveal them VERY SOON.

[insan]

If those are the sine qua non of Turkey then it is more than obvious that there will never be a solution because
a)The first one means almost 2 separate states

Not almost two seperate states but two federal regions with the same limited sovereignity under supervision of central state and the constitution of Cyprus.

b)The Tcs who constituted 18% of the population and owned just 12% of the privately owned land want to have a minumim 29 % of it (compared with 37%) they occupy now

This is the result of the provisions regarding the properties and the GC refugees that will be returned. What amount of that %29 would belong to TCs after 1/3 of the properties of GC refugees have been returned?

c)They want rights for military intervention, which for us is something like putting a wolf to watch the sheep.

If the intervention right is binded with explicit laws and the conditions of intervention has been explicitly defined; there would be nothing to worry about. What's the difference of intervention of local security forces and foreign guarantor powers? In case of a intercommunal strife the balance of the power without the gurantor powers would be 1 vs 5. If you can remeber in early 60s when intercommunal violance was outbroken the balance of the power had become 1 TC vs 5 GC plus 5 Greek together with the illegally sent Greek forces under command of Grivas. I don't think TCs would permenantly insist on gurantorship of foreign powers. This depends on the relations of two communities. If everything goes well, the guarantorship of foreign powers can be abolished with a referandum...

d)Plus all other problems they will load on us like settlers, etc.

Yes, the settlers issue is my main concern because I don't think most of the GCs would be able to digest the settlers presence on their ancestral lands and properties; even half of the settlers have been repatriated... In my opinion, the presence of settlers will always cause tension upon most of the GCs.

I know these were the sine qua nons of the Generals back in 2003. If these are still the sine qua nons of Ertogan I advice him to think twice and even thrice before revealing them to Europe. Because he will be asked to reveal them VERY SOON.

These are not only the sine qua nons of Generals but also the sine qua nons of TCs. Have you ever heard the otherwise stated by any of the TC leader including Akinci, Durduran, İzcan and Angolemli. If you think that they feel themselves under control of Generals and that's why they don't speak; you are mistaken.


And Erdogan has already revealed them to the whole world. What did you think they were talking about with Verhoigen, Prodi, Berlusconi... when they met through out the year 2004?

[brother]

Tassos has got the GC community believing that turkey is full of idiots, some advice do not under estimate them like 1974 or you will lose again and this time you will drag all cypriots down with you.

[Saint Jimmy]

Tassos has got the GC community believing that turkey is full of idiots, some advice do not under estimate them like 1974 or you will lose again and this time you will drag all cypriots down with you.

Brother, Tassos would very much like to get everyone believing that Turks are idiots, but he is not that good. I can assure you that most of us understand the change in Turkey's attitude since Erdogan came to power, as well as the reasons behind this change. It's not that Erdogan is a saint, but he seems to have chosen the right path; for Turkey, for Cyprus, etc. We are not underestimating them (how can we?), and don't worry, one way or another, we are not going back to 74. Wait a while, till the new negotiations start. My impression is that Tassos can't play his 'fuck you all' game any more...

[MicAtCyp]

Not almost two seperate states but two federal regions
with the same limited sovereignity under supervision of
central state and the constitution of Cyprus.

If the Federal Law is not superior to the Constituent States law, and if the Fed State does not have any power to intervene and set its law on the Constituent States then it is 2 separate states and nothing else. Don't the TCs accuse us all the time that we want to dominate them via our supremacy/majority in the Fed state?

This is the result of the provisions regarding the
properties and the GC refugees that will be returned.
What amount of that %29 would belong to TCs after 1/3 of
the properties of GC refugees have been returned?

First of all I totally disagree with the fact that for every GC who would return there should be a percentage increase over and above the 18% margin of the geographical area under TC administration. With the same logic there should be an increase over and above the 82% margin of the geographical area under GC administration to account for the maximum number of TCs refugees that might return as per Anan Plan.

If the argument that very few TCs would return is true, I can equally claim that under the provisions of the Anan Plan not even one GC would return under TC administration.
So why the TCs should govern 29% of the Geographical area?

Secondly: The GCs are making enough concessions by accepting an exchange of their properties so that the TCs will live concentrated at a place. This is NOT a gift of the TCs to the GCs but a gift of the GCs to the TCs. So one should expect that the TCs should compensate the GCs by getting no more that 12% administrative rights on land and not the other way round i.e demanding from the GCs to give them an extra 50%

Third: any solution runs the risk of collapsing and leading to partition. By getting 29% administrative rights on Land -instead of the fair share of 18% - the TCs would have every reason to sooner or later force the aggreement to collapse!

If the intervention right is binded with explicit laws
and the conditions of intervention has been explicitly
defined; there would be nothing to worry about.

I agree. Where are those explicit laws and conditions though? Havent seen them in the Anan Plan or anywhere else.

These are not only the sine qua nons of Generals but
also the sine qua nons of TCs. Have you ever heard the
otherwise stated by any of the TC leader including
Akinci, Durduran, İzcan and Angolemli. If you think that
they feel themselves under control of Generals and
that's why they don't speak; you are mistaken.

Then I am very sorry. Until the Tcs clarify in their minds that a) one way or another the majority has to have some more control, and b) They cannot expect to govern more area than what their population percentage and land ownership rights permit there will be no solution.

I am glad you opened our eyes that the sine qua nons of even the most moderate TCs do not differ from those of the Generals.

And Erdogan has already revealed them to the whole
world. What did you think they were talking about with
Verhoigen, Prodi, Berlusconi... when they met through
out the year 2004?

I don't know what those guys were talking, and frankly speaking I don't care. What I care is whether the EU as a collective body will ever be able to prove us that a Federal system where the Central State law is not superior to the Constituent states law is anything less than 2 separate states, whether 18% of the people should govern a minimum of 29% of geograhical area of the Country, and whether an invading force who deliberately changed the demographics of my Country should get away with this at no cost at all.

[insan]

If the Federal Law is not superior to the Constituent States law, and if the Fed State does not have any power to intervene and set its law on the Constituent States then it is 2 separate states and nothing else. Don't the TCs accuse us all the time that we want to dominate them via our supremacy/majority in the Fed state?

Two seperate states are Turkey and Greece. Annan Plan is a new model of a hybrid between confederation and federation... Why it was based on a hybrid of confederation and federation? Because it is the one most feasible for a divided multi-ethnic community ... Treat it good, improve and evolve it something better... Like US confederation...

And you know my suggestion is absolute equality on legislative and judicial bodies, both at constituent state level and central state level. If I were the negotiater I would put forward it to debate...(see details under the thread "political equality for all".

First of all I totally disagree with the fact that for every GC who would return there should be a percentage increase over and above the 18% margin of the geographical area under TC administration. With the same logic there should be an increase over and above the 82% margin of the geographical area under GC administration to account for the maximum number of TCs refugees that might return as per Anan Plan. If the argument that very few TCs would return is true, I can equally claim that under the provisions of the Anan Plan not even one GC would return under TC administration.
So why the TCs should govern 29% of the Geographical area?

Ok. Let's make it flexible and reudjust the administrative areas of each constituent state after a certain time period.(T-Pap instead of put forward his demnads for debate, prefer to not negotiate at all in dream of "European Solution" which he thinks in the end he would manage to takeover whole Cyprus.

Secondly: The GCs are making enough concessions by accepting an exchange of their properties so that the TCs will live concentrated at a place. This is NOT a gift of the TCs to the GCs but a gift of the GCs to the TCs. So one should expect that the TCs should compensate the GCs by getting no more that 12% administrative rights on land and not the other way round i.e demanding from the GCs to give them an extra 50%

The neverending "majority rule" and "Enosis" obsessions of Hellen's far right dragged us into the current situation. So, I Can't consider the exchange of properties as a consession or a gift from GCs to TCs.

Third: any solution runs the risk of collapsing and leading to partition. By getting 29% administrative rights on Land -instead of the fair share of 18% - the TCs would have every reason to sooner or later force the aggreement to collapse!

Don't worry about it. About 1/3 and even perhaps more of the private properties and 1/4 of the state land in %29 will always be yours. And I wonder what's your opinions regarding this issue? Should TCs accept %18 of administrative area without calculating its economic viability and productivity? And beside that, should TCs accept return of 40-50 thousand refugees to that %18 by returning all of their properties.

I agree. Where are those explicit laws and conditions though? Havent seen them in the Anan Plan or anywhere else.

Ask T-Pap and Christofias to put them on the table of course if you can awake them dreaming of the "Eoropean Solution".

Then I am very sorry. Until the Tcs clarify in their minds that a) one way or another the majority has to have some more control,

I'm sorry too. TCs don't want to be ruled by "that majority" (Akritas junk Hellen Ruling elite) in any way...

and b) They cannot expect to govern more area than what their population percentage and land ownership rights permit there will be no solution.

And of course GCs cannot expect TCs to accept just %18 without calculating what amount of private and state land really belongs to them in light of economic viability and productivity.

I am glad you opened our eyes that the sine qua nons of even the most moderate TCs do not differ from those of the Generals.

And TCs would be glad to hear what the GC communities sine qua nons are... Although you refered some of them in your post; we couldn't hear them from the official mouths ...

[brother]

saint jimmy, well i hope that is true what you have stated as we all know about tassos and do not trust him.

[insan]

Ok. Let me guess what are the official sine qua nons of GC side:

1- Withdrawal of Turkish troops.(Does that mean that Greek troops can stay?)

2- No guarantorship of foreign countries.

3- Repatriation of all settlers.

4- Return of all refugees.

5- Turkey to pay compensation the damage she caused by invading and loss of use of past 30 years.

6- Proportional to population percentage land ownership: %18-%82.

7- Freedom of movement, rgiht to buy property and right to settlement.

8- A centralised, majoritarian federal system where majority rules.


I don't think anything less that 8 sine qua nons would be satisfactory for Hellen's ruling elite. If someday they have been obliged to accept a solution plan that does not provide any of the above sine qua nons; I'm sure they would make a new Akritas plan to get them all...

So... If probability of the solution is %50, viability of the solution seems %0