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[zan]

That has gone and good luck to it because we want to embrace a new more exciting one within the modern world.

All you have to think about is if your NEW MODERN identity will be better or worse than your old traditional TC identity.
Well, heres a good example for you:

Your daughter gets married with someone from Turkey. Your grand-daughter gets raped. Her brothers slaughter their pregnant sister to wipe off the shame.

Congratulations for your NEW MODERN culture.

NB. The above example might be extreme, but it is indicative of what you should expect.

I am sorry Pyro but this post just about says it all. You no longer have the right to comment on the Turks from Turkey ever again. I do not wish to be rude to you on this subject because I now realise you have no idea about Turkey so it is not worth arguing the point. There are some honour killings that go on in Turkey but they are so far out of the real Turkey that it is of no consequence. What you need to do is to go there and actually open your eyes as to how European and diverse a people they are. I am actually writing this with a real sense of despair at what you have written here because if it is out of ignorance or just pure hate it makes no difference.

I know that truth hurts sometimes,Zan,but that is not Pyro's fault,is it?
He is using an extreme example (as he admitted himself) to make a point.And his point is very valid. The settlers are not and will not be the worldly,educated Turks like Tufan (2Fan) but those poor sods,the uneducated,culturally inflexible,unsuitable characters who are just looking for a better economic environment to transport their religiously bigoted and male chauvinistic,blinkered mindsets...Any hope that they might be culturally and politically integrated in a short time is sadly misguided.
Please don't get me wrong,I am not saying it is their fault,and I am not looking down on them.What I am saying is they don't belong in Cyprus.TCs have enough problems to deal with without taking on the problems these people will import to Cyprus.I am amased you and Viewpoint fail to see these dangers...

WOW! Again. It seems that your big hearted intensions are shrinking day by day. You defend ignorance because it is GC but you condemn an uneducated people that can easily be educated. Once a country bumpkin always a country bumpkin. Is that what you are telling me. If people never change then nor do the GCs and they still want to kill us and give our country to Greece. Is that how it is.

[BirKibrisli]

No,Viewpoint,we are not the ones stuck in a time warp. We are prepared to leave the past where it belongs,and move with the more enlightened times,and find a more civilised and humanistic solution to our problems.
You and Zan are stuck in the pathological fear of the GCs which might have been understandable back in the 60s.But totally irrelevant and paraniodal in the present.
And if you haven't worked it out yet,I was 4 years old in 1955 when EOKA and TMT began their evil dance of death and self-destruction,and 12 in 1963 when it all blew up in our faces.I had nothing to do with it.I belong to the generation of innocent children who had no idea why there was so much hatred and fear and biterness around us.Why we had to kill or be killed by our fellow compatriots...Why we had to leave our homeland and try to forge another life elsewhere where we were not really welcome but only just tolerated...Think about it.

Give me some examples of what the RoC has done for us since 1963. Just a handful of examples will do.



I will give you a few of what the Turks did for us. They saved us from certain destruction. They have given us money and food to cancel out the siege that the RoC has put us under. They have fought for us on the world stage of politics. They are risking their EU membership for us. They died for us on our shores. They are willing to take us in as one of their own if we want them to.


You will argue that they are doing it for themselves but again what has the RoC done for us.....ever. All we get from them is oxi, oxi oxi.

You are making the mistake which is the mother of all cognitive distortions,Zan.It is called emotional reasoning.

Sure,Turkey saved us from a potential catastrophy,as she was obliged to do under the Act of Guarantee which underpinned the 1960 constitution.
And they supported us the best way they can during the 1964-74 period,for which I am as grateful as you are. But this does not excuse Turkey's subsequent actions. I am talking about the rescuer- turned- occupier and coloniser,which is the reality now.For her own reasons,our rescuer has now become our enslaver. And our cultural and national executioner. I am sorry but that is how I see it.
If Turkey was concerned only about our interests,she would've dragged us back into the RoC (kicking and screaming if necessary),restored the legitimacy of the Makarios government and all our rights within the Constitution,and kissed us goodbye,and let us get on with our own lives.
Do you really believe that Turkey needs 40,000 troops stationed in Cyprus to protect us from any misguided GC massacre? She is 30 miles away for God's sake. A sufficiently well trained and equiped Rapid Response Force,say 10,000 strong ready and waiting in Mersin,would be enough to guarantee the physical security of TCs.But not enough to safeguard the land occupied in Cyprus...You guys have good brains,use it to think logically and rationally,instead of practising emotional reasoning,mental filters and all those other fine cognitive distortions.We might even solve the Cyprus problem if the other side comes to the party as well...

[zan]

No,Viewpoint,we are not the ones stuck in a time warp. We are prepared to leave the past where it belongs,and move with the more enlightened times,and find a more civilised and humanistic solution to our problems.
You and Zan are stuck in the pathological fear of the GCs which might have been understandable back in the 60s.But totally irrelevant and paraniodal in the present.
And if you haven't worked it out yet,I was 4 years old in 1955 when EOKA and TMT began their evil dance of death and self-destruction,and 12 in 1963 when it all blew up in our faces.I had nothing to do with it.I belong to the generation of innocent children who had no idea why there was so much hatred and fear and biterness around us.Why we had to kill or be killed by our fellow compatriots...Why we had to leave our homeland and try to forge another life elsewhere where we were not really welcome but only just tolerated...Think about it.

Give me some examples of what the RoC has done for us since 1963. Just a handful of examples will do.



I will give you a few of what the Turks did for us. They saved us from certain destruction. They have given us money and food to cancel out the siege that the RoC has put us under. They have fought for us on the world stage of politics. They are risking their EU membership for us. They died for us on our shores. They are willing to take us in as one of their own if we want them to.


You will argue that they are doing it for themselves but again what has the RoC done for us.....ever. All we get from them is oxi, oxi oxi.

You are making the mistake which is the mother of all cognitive distortions,Zan.It is called emotional reasoning.

Sure,Turkey saved us from a potential catastrophy,as she was obliged to do under the Act of Guarantee which underpinned the 1960 constitution.
And they supported us the best way they can during the 1964-74 period,for which I am as grateful as you are. But this does not excuse Turkey's subsequent actions. I am talking about the rescuer- turned- occupier and coloniser,which is the reality now.For her own reasons,our rescuer has now become our enslaver. And our cultural and national executioner. I am sorry but that is how I see it.
If Turkey was concerned only about our interests,she would've dragged us back into the RoC (kicking and screaming if necessary),restored the legitimacy of the Makarios government and all our rights within the Constitution,and kissed us goodbye,and let us get on with our own lives.
Do you really believe that Turkey needs 40,000 troops stationed in Cyprus to protect us from any misguided GC massacre? She is 30 miles away for God's sake. A sufficiently well trained and equiped Rapid Response Force,say 10,000 strong ready and waiting in Mersin,would be enough to guarantee the physical security of TCs.But not enough to safeguard the land occupied in Cyprus...You guys have good brains,use it to think logically and rationally,instead of practising emotional reasoning,mental filters and all those other fine cognitive distortions.We might even solve the Cyprus problem if the other side comes to the party as well...

There is no distortion Bir. What I am doing is not jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan. That problem we have with Turkey is another front and we will fight that as well but that will not be a bloody war. That war is with respect for our saviours and as soon as we can assure them that we will not sell their obvious interests down the river and we will be an eternal ally then we can work together. You are mixing the two fronts up. Our fight with the RoC has got nothing to with that and it is you that is trying to mix things up and blur the edges. Is there a scientific name for that? We demand that we be recognised and be allowed to function as a republic from both the RoC and Turkey. Turkey is a bit jumpy at the moment because the present government of the TRNC is looking to cut Turkey out all together. This will obviously be easier for Turkey if it is allowed into the EU, as I believe they will be. The army is there as a symbol for the first instance and as well you know that the moment they step off the island and something does happen the present RoC constitution does not allow for them to be a guarantor power so they would have to apply to the UN and the EU to allow them to intervene by which time anything can happen. If you are asking me to put my trust in the UN or the EU to protect me then you are asking way too much.

[BirKibrisli]

There is no distortion Bir. What I am doing is not jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan. That problem we have with Turkey is another front and we will fight that as well but that will not be a bloody war. That war is with respect for our saviours and as soon as we can assure them that we will not sell their obvious interests down the river and we will be an eternal ally then we can work together. You are mixing the two fronts up. Our fight with the RoC has got nothing to with that and it is you that is trying to mix things up and blur the edges. Is there a scientific name for that? We demand that we be recognised and be allowed to function as a republic from both the RoC and Turkey. Turkey is a bit jumpy at the moment because the present government of the TRNC is looking to cut Turkey out all together. This will obviously be easier for Turkey if it is allowed into the EU, as I believe they will be. The army is there as a symbol for the first instance and as well you know that the moment they step off the island and something does happen the present RoC constitution does not allow for them to be a guarantor power so they would have to apply to the UN and the EU to allow them to intervene by which time anything can happen. If you are asking me to put my trust in the UN or the EU to protect me then you are asking way too much.

I am not aware of any offically accepted cognitive distortion that will explain mixing two things or blurring the edges...I guess that would be just plain muddy thinking,if that is what I am doing .

I believe you are wrong about the present Constitution not allowing guarantor powers.I think the 1960 constitution was never changed,it could not be ,as it needed the agreement of the TC vice-president to change anything. So Turkey officially has all the powers now as she had then. But your point that once the troops are withdrawn it would be more difficult to reengage them in hot action is a valid one...

[Kifeas]

There is no distortion Bir. What I am doing is not jumping out of the fire and into the frying pan. That problem we have with Turkey is another front and we will fight that as well but that will not be a bloody war. That war is with respect for our saviours and as soon as we can assure them that we will not sell their obvious interests down the river and we will be an eternal ally then we can work together. You are mixing the two fronts up. Our fight with the RoC has got nothing to with that and it is you that is trying to mix things up and blur the edges. Is there a scientific name for that? We demand that we be recognised and be allowed to function as a republic from both the RoC and Turkey. Turkey is a bit jumpy at the moment because the present government of the TRNC is looking to cut Turkey out all together. This will obviously be easier for Turkey if it is allowed into the EU, as I believe they will be. The army is there as a symbol for the first instance and as well you know that the moment they step off the island and something does happen the present RoC constitution does not allow for them to be a guarantor power so they would have to apply to the UN and the EU to allow them to intervene by which time anything can happen. If you are asking me to put my trust in the UN or the EU to protect me then you are asking way too much.

I am not aware of any offically accepted cognitive distortion that will explain mixing two things or blurring the edges...I guess that would be just plain muddy thinking,if that is what I am doing .

I believe you are wrong about the present Constitution not allowing guarantor powers.I think the 1960 constitution was never changed,it could not be ,as it needed the agreement of the TC vice-president to change anything. So Turkey officially has all the powers now as she had then. But your point that once the troops are withdrawn it would be more difficult to reengage them in hot action is a valid one...

The 1960 constitution was never changed, however the 1960 treaty of “guarantee” which allows unilateral intervention “rights” to the so-called guarantor powers, is nullified by default since it contravenes with the UN Charter, and the UN Charter and its provisions are treated as the ultimate of international law, or the constitution of international legality and international relations. That is why the Turkish invasion of 1974 is illegal in the face of international law –set aside the Turkish occupation, and that is why Turkey refused to appear in The Hague International Court of Justice (ICJ) when the RoC asked them to proceed together and have a verdict on the lawfulness of the Turkish invasion. If Turkey had a case, it would have come forward to the invitation by the RoC!

[zan]

Thanks for that Kifeas. When did the UN charter take over from the 1960 constitution?

[Kifeas]

Thanks for that Kifeas. When did the UN charter take over from the 1960 constitution?

1. We are talking about the 1960 treaty of guarantee, which is a separate document from the 1960 constitution. The intervention "rights" of the "guarantor" powers are part of the treaty of guarantee.

2. It took over from the moment Turkey, Greece and the UK have become members of the UN and ratified the UN Charter, as well as from the moment Cyprus, in 1960, ratified the UN Charter and was accepted by the UN SC and the UN Genral assemply to became a member of the organisation.

Do you know what the UN Charter is?

[Kifeas]

Charter of the United Nations
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/

Chapter XVI, article 103.

"In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail."

[zan]

This is a point of contention as well you know it Kifeas and you have argued it a thousand times and lost. Especially to a person on another form.

The Treaty of guarantee is part of the constitution, article 181 as far as I can remember, and therefore if the treaty is to be nullified then the constitution is also. That it turn makes the RoC illegal and so on. This is for the courts and without the recognition of the TRNC then no law courts can try this case fairly. End of.

You can twist this as many times as you like but it will not make a difference because the law makes this a mockery.

Boy am I gonna get it now.

[DT.]

This is a point of contention as well you know it Kifeas and you have argued it a thousand times and lost. Especially to a person on another form.

The Treaty of guarantee is part of the constitution, article 181 as far as I can remember, and therefore if the treaty is to be nullified then the constitution is also. That it turn makes the RoC illegal and so on. This is for the courts and without the recognition of the TRNC then no law courts can try this case fairly. End of.

You can twist this as many times as you like but it will not make a difference because the law makes this a mockery.

Boy am I gonna get it now.

Not gonna get it Zan...I've stopped arguing this point because all we have to do is go to the Hague and we can clear the whole thing out. Turkey won't do that though, just like it won't do it for the Aegean either.

I guess you'll only go to court when you find a court that agrees with you?