Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Well it's just a matter of what you see the purpose of these sites for. I initially decided to participate to try and undestand what I didn't know and in that sense it has been useful. Some time ago I realised that the older I get the less certain I am of things so I don't know about right and wrong. Wisdom comes from listening and responding to arguements put forward and learning as a result of this. I have had enough of people being labelled traitors, enemies and all that shit. It creates a hostile environment and because people got personal it leads to mud slinging. I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of it but I don't defend it.

My brother does enough of the traitor thing for both of us so I have never accused any one of it. He's really a good man ( if he is reading this) but as stuborn as a mule.

[BirKibrisli]

Our enemy is wanting something we can't have. I am a true Cypriot that wants something other than what Bir and others like him want and they inadvertantly call me a traitor by calling themselves "True Cypriots". Where is the loyalty in that?

'Enemies' everywhere we look, some speaking Greek some speaking Turkish, I despair of this persistent over simplification and lack of acceptance of opposing points of view. Can't we disagree without labelling each other?

We don't always label others. We can also label ourselves and in doing so, this little label says I am right so therefore you must be wrong. True Cypriot as opposed to .....what? I have no problem with thier views except for the fact that I think that they are wrong. Lets talk.

I am sorry if some people are offended by things I say in my posts.The last thing I want is to alienate people,which is what you do the moment you label them or call them names.
But you will agree it is very difficult to discuss anything in these forums without talking about TCs,GCs,Cypriots or True or Real Cypriots...
True Cypriot for me is a way to describe those people who want to put their Cypriotness first. These people know/think/believe we are where we are because of the nationalism virus which infected our country back in the late 1800s,and caused untold pain and suffering for the people of Cyprus. Naturally we see the answer in shedding that virus,and embracing our likeness instead of stressing our differences.One thing we all have in common is our birthplace.We are all sons or daughters of Cyprus,and hence Cyprus is our motherland. Talking about other foreign places as our "motherland" is not only misleading but very stupid.Real Cypriots (here I go again but you know what I mean) are culturally and biologically like each other,and unlike the people of the foreign lands we might've hailed from hundreds or thousands of years ago.You can be a TC and a GC and be a Real Cypriot as well. But you can't be Turkish or Greek and still be a real Cypriot.I mean you can't feel closer to Turkey or Greece and the people of those countries and still insist you are a true/real Cypriot...Is that not sensible???

As far as you are concerned Zan,you are no traitor mate.You are a true Cypriot-in-the -making...

[mehmet]

Bir wrote

people who want to put their Cypriotness first.

And would you not agree this can be done by people who have lived in Cyprus but come from other places? After all who might have more Cypriot culture in themselves, a Turkish immigrant who has lived in Cyprus 30 years or the son of two Turkish Cypriot's who has lived all his life in UK? Just as we embrace our Greek speaking neighbours we must also include those who want to be part of our islands future, after all many of them may prefer to choose Cyprus instead of Turkey.

A point I would like to make is that I have lived as an ethnic minority all my life and it's not necessarily a bad thing if there are rights in law and security. This is why I would prefer to see a unified state of Cyprus within EU, with Turkey also a member. A EU solution looks unlikely but it could be a stabilising influence on our island in the aftermath of any solution.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir wrote

people who want to put their Cypriotness first.

And would you not agree this can be done by people who have lived in Cyprus but come from other places? After all who might have more Cypriot culture in themselves, a Turkish immigrant who has lived in Cyprus 30 years or the son of two Turkish Cypriot's who has lived all his life in UK? Just as we embrace our Greek speaking neighbours we must also include those who want to be part of our islands future, after all many of them may prefer to choose Cyprus instead of Turkey.

A point I would like to make is that I have lived as an ethnic minority all my life and it's not necessarily a bad thing if there are rights in law and security. This is why I would prefer to see a unified state of Cyprus within EU, with Turkey also a member. A EU solution looks unlikely but it could be a stabilising influence on our island in the aftermath of any solution.

Of course,Mehmet.
I never said we should toss everyone out,including the baby with the bathwater.My whole point is ethnicity or language or religion should have nothing to do with who should be considered a Cypriot. A Turkish migrant who has lived in Cyprus for 30 years would be most welcome if he/she really consider themselves Cypriots first.And if they don't consider Cypriots of GC origin as their enemies who should be kept on the other side of the border. The trouble is how will/can we measure the degree of Cypriotness in anyone? My measure is how many walls they want to put between themselves and the "other" Cypriots...If they want partition or any other kind of solution which exclude the "other" then they can't be considered real Cypriots...That goes for GCs too by the way,not only TCs...

[humanist]

Interesting discussion, I vote that the immigrant Cypriot mentioned above stays long with his/her family

[Viewpoint]

Interesting discussion, I vote that the immigrant Cypriot mentioned above stays long with his/her family

People like Piratis would beg to differ, he feels they should all be shipped back, this is the real face of GCs.

[Viewpoint]

mmfromng is right you have stated many times that you identify with GCs more than you do TCs so why not go to your utopia which is the GC run south and change your name to Nicos, this should then deem you a real "Cypriot" you could then live happily ever after with your other " Cypriot" brothers why do you admantly want to persuade and drag us into the same hole as yourself?

Truly,Viewpoint,I don't know why I bother sometimes.
I pour my heart out,I tell you how much it hurts me to see the TC identity being extinguished in Cyprus,and you tell me to go and become a GC...

GC run South is not my Utopia.My Utopia is a United Cyprus run by Cypriots for Cypriots irrespective of their ethnic origins or which computer programme they use for language and religion. I will not be happy in a Cyprus without her TCs or her GCs. Is that really so difficult to comprehend???

Anyway,I am going to have my True Cypriot breakfast now.Fried eggs with halloumi/hellim.I'll wash it down with real black tea brewed Turkish style,while listening to Turkish music on TRT FM on the internet...
If I close my eyes to the sight of Eucalyptus trees and my ears to the sound of kookaburras in the garden,I can think I am in Cyprus...

Bir I am sorry if I sound harsh but you live in la la land where everything is painted in a Cypriotism colour, well I am sorry but that color don't exist. You have still not grasped what it is you are dealing with and that is a GC majority enforcing its own brand of democracy and human rights on us the people who actually live here. The old saying is one law for you and another for me. All I and many other TCs are asking for is a right to have a say in our own future and ensure the safety of the ones we love.

Is this really to much to ask for?

You have stated you are closer to the likes of Piratis Kifeas and co, you and Kikapu have aslo stated that the south is closer to you utopia of Cypriotism en mass, well all you have to do is move south and live with those Cypriots, we are not ready or willing to do this as we do not feel as comfortable as you with placing our welling being in other peoples hands. If something is put before us where we to feel that we can commit then I am not against this but in the meantime TCs should not be treated any different from anyone else in the EU. This is what your Cypriot brothers are insisting on, they do not feel that the freedoms they have should also be allowed for the TCs. Just think about it for 2 minutes, the current atmosphere here on the island and the steps taken by your brothers in the south towards bringing TCs closer to wanting a united Cyprus. Well the reality is that we are further away from a solution than we have ever been.

[zan]

Bir wrote

people who want to put their Cypriotness first.

And would you not agree this can be done by people who have lived in Cyprus but come from other places? After all who might have more Cypriot culture in themselves, a Turkish immigrant who has lived in Cyprus 30 years or the son of two Turkish Cypriot's who has lived all his life in UK? Just as we embrace our Greek speaking neighbours we must also include those who want to be part of our islands future, after all many of them may prefer to choose Cyprus instead of Turkey.

A point I would like to make is that I have lived as an ethnic minority all my life and it's not necessarily a bad thing if there are rights in law and security. This is why I would prefer to see a unified state of Cyprus within EU, with Turkey also a member. A EU solution looks unlikely but it could be a stabilising influence on our island in the aftermath of any solution.

Of course,Mehmet.
I never said we should toss everyone out,including the baby with the bathwater.My whole point is ethnicity or language or religion should have nothing to do with who should be considered a Cypriot. A Turkish migrant who has lived in Cyprus for 30 years would be most welcome if he/she really consider themselves Cypriots first.And if they don't consider Cypriots of GC origin as their enemies who should be kept on the other side of the border. The trouble is how will/can we measure the degree of Cypriotness in anyone? My measure is how many walls they want to put between themselves and the "other" Cypriots...If they want partition or any other kind of solution which exclude the "other" then they can't be considered real Cypriots...That goes for GCs too by the way,not only TCs...

We had a chat about this point of settlers and I think we came to a decision on which you would evict. I asked you about a family that had children in school but the parents were not born in Cyprus and you said that they should go. Now you are saying that a simple pledge of allegiance will win them a respite????????????

So now it boils down to not Cypriots of blood but Cypriots of pledge to the soil. So have you found your “measure” of Cypriotness? NO! because you ask other questions of all the Cypriots, including people like me that were born there. You say do you agree with unification? If the answer is no then your conclusion (or confusion) is that we are not Cypriots. The Spanish inquisition????? Nazi intolerance?


The problems with unification are many and some of them are at an impasse. To imply that all we have to do is want it in order for it to happen is a pipe dream. Without resolving many of the issues then dreams alone will only produce nightmares. I believe that the resolving of these issues has gone way beyond repair and we need to acknowledge this fact and do the right thing for all concerned. As well you know the biggest being the refugee problem that could have been resolved very soon after 1974 but for Greek intransigence. If they had agreed to reinstate the 1960 constitution in its entirety along with the reasonable (by todays standard) land issues then we would not be at this impossible situation.

[Kikapu]

[, Kikapu have aslo stated that the south is closer to you utopia of Cypriotism en mass, well all you have to do is move south and live with those Cypriots, we are not ready or willing to do this as we do not feel as comfortable as you with placing our welling being in other peoples hands. .

Viewpoint,

All I'm saying is, I want to call 100% of Cyprus as my country of Birth, where as, you're happy to only remain in the 37%. We don't need to re-hash the whole past, but I do not get any sense from you, that you would like to see a 100% of Cyprus being your country of Birth, now or in the future.

If one does not wish for the present situation to change, then present situation becomes the norm and a reality in one's thinking. You tell me and Birkibrisli, that we live in a "Dream World", that the GC's will never change so that we can all live happily ever after. Obviously you have not had any problems within your close or extended family, where there are often problems. We have had and still do have problems within our family structure, and not everything is rosy, but we learn to deal with them in a special ways. One does not always love everyone in their family all the time, we just learn to tolerate them, but you cannot take yourself out of that "Family Tree". You're part of that tree. Therefore my friend Viewpoint, as Cypriots, we are all part of that "Cypriot Tree" and you cannot take yourself out, unless you're willing to cut the branch that you're sitting on, to separate yourself from the whole tree. I choose to remain part of the tree, therefore, I want to remain 100% of Cyprus.

[miltiades]

VP , Bir included many as being closer to him , including myself , Kikapu and Cyperzokily.
I believe that I can say , in the same context that Bir had in mind and still does , that I'm closer to Mehmet , mrfromng , Issy1956 , Bir , Piratis , Kifeas , Bananiot and indeed to you and Zan rather than the Greeks of Greece , the Pontians , the Turks from Turkey etc. Of course we are closer to each other since our country of birth is none other than Cyprus , that makes us all first and foremost Cypriots. I will also add that knowing mrfromng as I do I can honestly say that I feel closer to him than I do to some Pontian Greek or mainland Greek for that matter.I feel closer to all Cypriots and I immensely disagree with those advocating violence and the division of our island. Some will have noticed that I voiced my opposition to any moves that would cement partition so opposing the introduction for instance of direct flights to North Cyprus is not an act of revenge or spite but purely an act of opposition to the creation of a separate Cypriot state on a permanent basis. Was I to accept that this would be of direct benefit to my Cypriot compatriots travelling in and out of Cyprus I would no doubt accept. But all it will do is establish a legality that the international community has yet to address , including the 27 other Muslim nations that have not recognised the North as a separate nation.