Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

EU is not a country.

Since you like what they have in the UK so much I accept to have what they have there, do you?

Before you were arguing about US states. When I said that I accept to have it exactly the way they have it in the US you changed your words.

I accept to have what they have in the US or any of the other 25 EU states.
Would you make such offer to me? Of course no. But I do it for you. So, which country would it be?

Oh wait, we forgot to add the future EU member: Turkey. So you have 26 countires to choose from, one of which is the country you lived for so many years (so it can't be that bad) and the other your beloved motherland (so it can't be that bad either). So?

You just do not get it do you. I really can not decide if this is consciously intentional or just subconscious.

I use the examples I did not because I think these examples are suitable for Cyprus. I use them to highlight how your 'single view' on what democracy means and how it should work in Cyprus is not reflected in a single version of democracy elsewhere in the world. If you insist that all you want is democracy in Cyprus and then refuse to accept there are any different types of democracy other than the single form that best suits your communites objectives, it undermines you whole argument for just wanting democracy. You do not just want democracy. You want only your version of democracy - and you continue to pretend that it is the only version that exists - despite clear evidence to the contrary.

Oh and for the record I have no motherland. I have the land I was born in. I have the lands my parents were born in. I have a mother. I do not have a motherland, beloved or otherwise.

Oh and the EU is not a country. Does that mean that it can not be democratic? That democracy can only apply to countries? Because you argue on the basis that you want a 'principal' called democracy. If there is such a single form of this pricnciple then it would be the same in a club, region, country, union of states or any other number of entities. The fact is that the 'principal' of democracy apllies to many institutions including the EU and the fact is that the different forms of democracy are many and varied and some include instances where 0.18% of the numerical numbers can block decisions of the other 99.92% and yet is still considered democratic. So a system whereby the TC community at 18% being able to block (some) decisons is by no means fundamental and inherently undemocratic - and your continual isnstance that it is (as a matter of principal) does not mean it is so. It just means that your are stubborn and blinkered in your prejudices.

[boulio]

im sorry im new to this forum but what i read alot is that the turkish cypriots dont want any solution but partion and so called independence.thats all, they are not up to negotioting for a solution because of the backing of turkey who is on the island for her own interests and not to protect the "poor old turkish cypriots"

[Piratis]

You want only your version of democracy - and you continue to pretend that it is the only version that exists - despite clear evidence to the contrary.

But I just said that I accept to have what they have in any EU country, USA or even Turkey. So all these countries are using my version of democracy, and they are all wrong?

I believe it is clear who invented his own version of "democracy"

[erolz]

I believe it is clear who invented his own version of "democracy"

So one state / community one vote is not democratic? It is not the very basis of 'federalism'? That anything that compromises your single version of democracy - namely one person one vote accross the whole of Cyprus on all issues (except maybe a few limited and pre defined areas that you grudginly give as gifts) , which also happens to give your community effective control over all of cyprus and the TC community, is not democratic. And you still insit that your absoluteness on this issues is purely based on your comittment to democracy and not based on a a desire to gain effective control for the GC community accross all of cypus and all its people? Come on.

[erolz]

im sorry im new to this forum but what i read alot is that the turkish cypriots dont want any solution but partion and so called independence.thats all, they are not up to negotioting for a solution because of the backing of turkey who is on the island for her own interests and not to protect the "poor old turkish cypriots"

And where do you 'read this alot'?

[Piratis]

That anything that compromises your single version of democracy - namely one person one vote accross the whole of Cyprus on all issues (except maybe a few limited and pre defined areas that you grudginly give as gifts) , which also happens to give your community effective control over all of cyprus and the TC community, is not democratic.

Erolz, is the system of USA the same like the system of UK, or the one in France? What "single version" are you talking about? I just said that I accept any of the versions of EU countries, USA, or even Turkey.

You are the one who insists on your own undemocratic version. You have to decide if you want to be independent or part of a united Cyprus. The degree of Independence you demand can only exist if you have a totally separate country(either officially separated, or in disguise like the Annan plan). So decide what you want.

[erolz]

Erolz, is the system of USA the same like the system of UK, or the one in France? What "single version" are you talking about? I just said that I accept any of the versions of EU countries, USA, or even Turkey.

Exactly! Different countries have different versions of 'democracy' and they are all considered democratic. In terms of Cyprus there are basicaly two forms of democracy, each of which is democratic. One places the primacy on equality of states / communites (which is the basis of a federal system). The other places primacy on the equality of indivduals accross the whole of Cyprus. You will only accept that later - which is fine that is your right. However what you also do is insist that the later is the ONLY form of democracy and that the former or anything else is just NOT democratic. Well the former is democratic, despite what you say or think.

You are the one who insists on your own undemocratic version. You have to decide if you want to be independent or part of a united Cyprus. The degree of Independence you demand can only exist if you have a totally separate country(either officially separated, or in disguise like the Annan plan). So decide what you want.

If you were to argue that all federal systems are undemocratic, because they place equality at the level of states and not indivudals (for some areas) - then your argument would be much more internaly consistant. However you do not do this because you know there are many many federal systems that place the primacy of equality (for some areas) at the level of states and not indivduals - and yet they universaly recognised as democratic. So you take an approach of accepting that federal systems are democratic anywhere except in Cyprus, where they are undemocratic. This is the essence of your contradictory position.

[Piratis]

One places the primacy on equality of states / communites (which is the basis of a federal system)

You are wrong. A federal system doesn't place the primacy of equality on states. Maybe you have in mind the kind of association proposed in Annan partition plan that has nothing to do with a real federation.
If I didn't accept federation, I wouldn't accept to have the US system in Cyprus.
As I told you already, if what you want is an association of two independent states then just say so.

[erolz]

You are wrong. A federal system doesn't place the primacy of equality on states.

We have already established that in some areas in the USA each state has equal representation regardless of it's size. That is then primacy (in these areas) of the equality of the states.

Maybe you have in mind the kind of association proposed in Annan partition plan that has nothing to do with a real federation.
If I didn't accept federation, I wouldn't accept to have the US system in Cyprus.

I have no association in mind I am just countering your (tiresome) stuck record that all we (GC) want is democracy, whyen in fact you only want a version of democracy that ensures the GC communites effective control over all of Cyprus and TC.
You accept a USA federal system only if GC are free to dominate both states (and thus achive your aim). You reject a USA system tailored to the specific needs of Cyprus, where each state is protected to some degree from becoming numericaly dominated by the other because that prevents your aim of effective GC control over all of Cyprus.

As I told you already, if what you want is an association of two independent states then just say so.[/quote]

[Piratis]

We have already established that in some areas in the USA each state has equal representation regardless of it's size. That is then primacy (in these areas) of the equality of the states.

Aren't those areas clearly defined? I have no problem with having equality of states in some defined areas like the US.

You reject a USA system tailored to the specific needs of Cyprus

I am sorry, but what you demand is tailored to your needs only and not mine. How can you say that I want something "tailored" when I am ready to accept just anything that exists in any of the other EU countries? If what any of the other EU countries have is acceptable to me, and none to you doesn't this shows who is the one who wants to impose something tailored just to his needs?