Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

I am not saying that restrictions of settlement can not apply to Cyprus. But if they do, then we should find a different way to achieve this balance that you refer to, otherwise we create first class and second class citizens.

Ok. The temporary provisions of Annan Plan would create second class citizens in TC constituent state, temporarily becuse the political rights of GC residents of TC constituent state was made dependent to some conditions. What about in a federation under the model of political structure I put forward in the first post of this thread?

Federation is acceptable, I said it, and I repeat it. What is not acceptable is inequality between people.

Would the model of political structure create inequality between Cypriots, as two communities and individuals? If it would, how? Can you tell us?

If you read my "main principles for solution" you will see that what I propose there is a federation that keeps this balance.

Your main principles for solution put GC community on top and TC community underneath while providing all individuals the equality. Our aim is to find a way which also provides equality in terms of communal existence and equal conditions to each community.

Many people argue that because we do not accept their version of bi-communal, bi-zonal federation, it means we do not accept such thing at all. First of all, they should rename their "version" as a bi-communal, bi-zonal loose confederation.
Secondly, for each thing there can be many versions, and rejecting some of them doesn't mean you can not accept some others.

In every effort you made to stress your opinions regarding solution, you exerted much and even many times twisted the meaning of the words, concepts; in order to make them fit your century aged "majority rule" thesis which is something favours GCs as a community and place TCs in an ineffective minority status, as a community.
[/quote]

[Piratis]

In every effort you made to stress your opinions regarding solution, you exerted much and even many times twisted the meaning of the words, concepts; in order to make them fit your century aged "majority rule" thesis which is something favours GCs as a community and place TCs in an ineffective minority status, as a community.

Insan, you are just making vague statments.

I believe I already explained my position. Instead of looking at my position, you see some hidden motives and you throw empty accusations.

[erolz]

Federation is acceptable, I said it, and I repeat it. What is not acceptable is inequality between people.

And you still have not answered the question (from Alexandro). Do you refuse any federation that compromises the equlity of indivduals to some degree to achieve equlity of communites / states (as almost all federations do)? If you do, then you do not accept federation except in a meaningless label of convience. It seems that your idea of federation is one where there is no equlity between communites what so ever, just some limted and pre defined 'special protections' for a TC political minority within Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Erolz, I already answered. Maybe you listen only what you want to listen.

Isn't the US a federation? The system there does not compromise the equality of individuals because all american citizens are free to move in the whole country and become residents of whichever state they decide with full political rights.
Do you accept that? If you do, then problem solved.

If you don't, then a different way of not compromising equality between people should be applied. You can't have everything your way.

[erolz]

Erolz, I already answered. Maybe you listen only what you want to listen.

Isn't the US a federation? The system there does not compromise the equality of individuals because all american citizens are free to move in the whole country and become residents of whichever state they decide with full political rights.
Do you accept that? If you do, then problem solved.

I am not expert on the USA federal system. However I am sure that at some levels there is equlity between the indivdual states, even though they are not numericaly the same size. If this is not the case then I would suggest that the USA is an 'atypical' federation and not a typical one (which is maybe why you seem to favour it so mouch).

If you don't, then a different way of not compromising equality between people should be applied. You can't have everything your way.

Have you any suggestions for a 'different way' ?

[Piratis]

However I am sure that at some levels there is equality between the individual states, even though they are not numericaly the same size.

Erolz, it seems to me you are intentionally missing the point.
At some levels there is equality between the states. But all states are made of equal US citizens. It is up to the citizen to choose his/her state, and in fact Americans move around quite a bit. So there you don't have X Americans that from the day they are born until the day they die are convicted to have less voting power simply because they happened to speak certain language, or have a certain religion. This is what they want to apply in Cyprus and this is discrimination.

If we had in cyprus what they have in the US we would simply have two states, were in both the majority could be GCs with full political rights. How much equality each states gets would then be irrelevant, isn't it?

So, we agreed that one of the states should have a TC majority guarantee. But this would mean that freedom of settlement is restricted. Limitation of settlement in our own country is already a big compromise, don't you think? Do you know any federation that has such thing?

In any case, we have already made that compromise. What I can not compromise though is that me and my kids and their kids etc, will always have 4.5 times less voting power than some other Cypriots, simply because we speak Greek.

Have you any suggestions for a 'different way' ?

If you read my "main principles for solution" you will see my way. In a few words, TCs get their state, they get autonomy within it (as long as they respect central state laws and Eu laws), and they get proportional (and in some cases boosted) representation in the central government.

I mean really, this is a made or brake matter. We are not going to re-invent democracy in the way it suits some people.

[erolz]

At some levels there is equality between the states. But all states are made of equal US citizens.

And so the smaller states indivduals have X times more voting rights than the larger.

It is up to the citizen to choose his/her state, and in fact Americans move around quite a bit. So there you don't have X Americans that from the day they are born until the day they die are convicted to have less voting power simply because they happened to speak certain language, or have a certain religion. This is what they want to apply in Cyprus and this is discrimination.

If we had in cyprus what they have in the US we would simply have two states, were in both the majority could be GCs with full political rights. How much equality each states gets would then be irrelevant, isn't it?

Which seems to me you have just argued / explained why trying to apply the USA system in Cyprus is pointless (unless of course you want a federal system where both states are controlled by GC).

So, we agreed that one of the states should have a TC majority guarantee. But this would mean that freedom of settlement is restricted. Limitation of settlement in our own country is already a big compromise, don't you think? Do you know any federation that has such thing?

So ok you have agreed that the TC state can be protected from GC numerical domination - but then you refuse to allow the states to have any degree of equality?

This to me seems the basic problem with trying to use the USA system as a guide, unless of course you do not want federal system based on a GC and TC state? Just a USA system with two meaningless states both identical to each (ie dominated by GC numerical majorites), or a federal system based on a GC and TC state but where the GC state has more power than the TC state, because it controls the central state as well as its own?

In any case, we have already made that compromise. What I can not compromise though is that me and my kids and their kids etc, will always have 4.5 times less voting power than some other Cypriots, simply because we speak Greek.

You will not have less voting power. Your vote will count as one vote in GC state and mine as one in the TC state. See equal. Anyway you could always come and live in the TC state (as part of the 20% of GC allowed) and then your vote will be 4.5 times other GC according to you?

If you read my "main principles for solution" you will see my way. In a few words, TCs get their state, they get autonomy within it (as long as they respect central state laws and Eu laws), and they get proportional (and in some cases boosted) representation in the central government.

We get autonomy , provided we respect the 'higher' law of a central state dominated by GC numerial majority ! That is your idea of a federal system is it. Central level comes above state level and at federal level GC will dominate. Does'nt sound like much of a federation to me.

I mean really, this is a made or brake matter. We are not going to re-invent democracy in the way it suits some people.

Are we just going to define democracy as it suits some people? Are we just going to 'pretend' that democracy is in practice a simple and universal thing, implemented the same way everywhere and in every democratic instituion? Are we going to deny that there is as much democracy in one state one vote as there is in in one person one vote?

If this is make or break, then for everyones sake get on with convincing your leaders to agree to negotiate a 'break'. When you finally realise that they have no intention of doing this, then come back and talk make or break.

[Alexandros Lordos]

What I can not compromise though is that me and my kids and their kids etc, will always have 4.5 times less voting power than some other Cypriots, simply because we speak Greek.

Piratis, how exactly do you calculate this "inequality coefficient" of x4.5 ?

... this is something I always found intruiging but never quite understood ...

[erolz]

Piratis, how exactly do you calculate this "inequality coefficient" of x4.5 ?

... this is something I always found intruiging but never quite understood ...

It 'works' on the basis that in a decsions of eqaulity between states a GC state of 800,000 people vs a TC state of 200,000 people means an indivdual GC has 1/4 the 'voting power' of a TC indivdual on this central decsion. It is in fact a 'refutation' of the very concept of 'ethnic federation' in anything other than examples where all states are exactly equal in numercial numbers. Of course such 'inequlity' is not a problem or at all 'un democratic' in the USA for example (putting piratis' argument forward as I understand it) because anyone can move to any state. IE 'inequal' federal systems are fine and democratic when they are not ethnic based states. Which gets us exactly nowhere, except to establish that Piratis is against any ehtnic based federal solution in Cyprus.

[insan]

Erolz, it seems to me you are intentionally missing the point.

Piratis, it seems to me that you are missing the whole point or trying to be some kind of olive oil in order to manage staying always on top...

At some levels there is equality between the states. But all states are made of equal US citizens. It is up to the citizen to choose his/her state, and in fact Americans move around quite a bit. So there you don't have X Americans that from the day they are born until the day they die are convicted to have less voting power simply because they happened to speak certain language, or have a certain religion. This is what they want to apply in Cyprus and this is discrimination.

Do you know how many years it took States of America to evolve into its current form? Apparently you don't know or you ignore....