Cyprus-Forum.com

[brother]

Ooooooo......you got to love that analagy.

[Piratis]

There is a price to be paid for every stupid action.

Accepting a bad "solution" plan is just another stupid action. Shouldn't we learn from our mistakes?

If TCs want to punish us even more for our "stupid actions", isn't it perfectly clear that later on we will also punish them for their stupid actions? I see no point in this.

[brother]

Would you accept that plan or seperation if they were the only two choices and you had to choose one.

[erolz]

So for our country some foreigners are going to decide? Do you know any other examples of countries that function like this? Or we are going to be the best Banana Republic ever created?

Do you know of any examples where two communties have failed to find agreement for as long as in Cyprus?

Either we are capable of finding a way of agreeing things amongst ourselves or we are not. If we are not then what else but arbitration. If we behave as children then yes we will need some foreign grown ups to settlem matters. Or are you suggesting we abandon the whole idea because we may not be able to agree?

[Bananiot]

Despite its flows the Annan Plan is a thousand times better than partition and permanent separation. It would have been much better had Papadopoulos attempted to negotiate it and improve it. He instead held secret meetings with the Denktash’s to bury it. Even at this late hour, while he recognises publicly that the plan is on the table he leaves all the initiatives to Erdogan. This man, in all his adult life, since the late 50’s, has sought a clean solution. He was even the vice president of the Akritas plan that aimed at eliminating the TC’s in one night. He has not changed a bit in all these years; rather he has become more intransigent. Now he thinks he can blackmail the big boys of the European Union. You cannot have the size of a penis and promote a policy the size of a minaret, an old Turkish proverb says. Papadopoulos seems to ignore this basic fact. How else can one explain his sorry tactics prior to Dec 17 and Oct 3 2005?

[Piratis]

Do you know of any examples where two communties have failed to find agreement for as long as in Cyprus?

I know many, and I am sure if I sit to look in every country's history I will find a lot more.

Blacks VS whites in US.
Indians VS whites in US.
Turks VS Kurds
The different religious groups in Iraq
Israeles VS Palestinians
Blanks VS White in SOuth Africa

The list can go on forever. And this is only when the confict is between different race/religious groups. If we take other conflicts (e.. between different ideologies) the list will get even bigger.

So erolz the solution "let the foreigners decide", is not a solution to the conflicts we have between us. As I said, such thing would create the best Banana Republic ever.
When you live in the 100% Banana Republic called "TRNC", you obvously don't care to change to another 100% banana Republic. We live in "just" 50% Banana Republic, and thats already too much for us.

Despite its flows the Annan Plan is a thousand times better than partition and permanent separation.

It depends who you are. Annan plan has a very long list of hugely negative aspects. The positives can be counted with the fingers of one hand: Some refugees to return, some land to be given back, and maybe 1-2 more.
If you are refugee that returns (like you?), then maybe these two pluses can overweight the ton of negative things. But if you are not a refugee then why should you prefer the Annan patition plan, than the current status or another form of partition that will have much less negative aspects?

If for example we agreed for Turkey to keep 18% and return the rest and have a "standart" partition. Can you tell me why this would be worst than Annan partition plan?

[Bananiot]

During the last few weeks rumours are circulating, but nothing public. These rumours speak of secret Nicosia - Ankara meetings that will decide on a solution of two states and confederation. Turkey will give back considerable land and get a promise of EU accession when it fulfills the criteria. For the time being this is just a scenario of science fiction, but probably many people are for this rather than any solution based on the A plan.

For me this is a nightmare scenario. Yes, I am a refugee but I have nothing in the north, so my only motive is the good of Cyprus. The Anan plan is not a divisive plan and calls for a united island. This has been granted by many world authorities on constitution and such matters. Perhaps, Piratis is now recognising that its either the A plan (with some changes, probably related to Akel's ideas) or two states and confederation. He seems to have made his choice, but in a way I am pleased he has finally realised that the dream of European solution was one sold by Papadopoulos to convince the unsuspecting to reject the plan, since something much better was on for them.

I wonder what would have been the result of the referendum had this real choice confronted the people. The Anan Plan or partition. We said it, but at the time we were accused of scaremongering!

[-mikkie2-]

Annan Plan 5 is a confederation in all but name! So much of the power that you would expect from a federal structure is given to the individual states that the federal government is merely a symbolic body, much like the monarchy and the queen are in the UK.

[erolz]

Do you know of any examples where two communties have failed to find agreement for as long as in Cyprus?

I know many, and I am sure if I sit to look in every country's history I will find a lot more.

Blacks VS whites in US.
Indians VS whites in US.
Turks VS Kurds
The different religious groups in Iraq
Israeles VS Palestinians
Blanks VS White in SOuth Africa

The list can go on forever. And this is only when the confict is between different race/religious groups. If we take other conflicts (e.. between different ideologies) the list will get even bigger.

I was talking about to parties that have been actively 'negotiating' a settlement / agreement and failing (in our case since 1960)

Certainly there are tensions and struggle between races in the USA and other countries but have they been trying to negotiate a settlement and failing? Have the Turks and the Kurds?

So erolz the solution "let the foreigners decide", is not a solution to the conflicts we have between us. As I said, such thing would create the best Banana Republic ever.

Well it seems to me that a praty that has been unable or unwilling to agree and that also refuse the very concept of external arbitration, is a party that wants one thing - it maximal aims and nothing else.

If for example we agreed for Turkey to keep 18% and return the rest and have a "standart" partition. Can you tell me why this would be worst than Annan partition plan?

Because the Annan plan leaves a possibility for Cypriots to 'come togeather' over time and agreed partition does not.

[Piratis]

Perhaps, Piratis is now recognising that its either the A plan (with some changes, probably related to Akel's ideas) or two states and confederation.

I never said such thing. What I said is that a standard partition (not confederation) where TCs keep 18% of land is better than Annan plan.
I said this to show how unacceptable the Annan plan is, and to answer Brothers theoretical question where these are the only two options.
In any case, personally I never said that getting in the EU will bring us a European solution. What I said is that our EU membership gives us some more power than before, and this is the truth.

I was talking about to parties that have been actively 'negotiating' a settlement / agreement and failing

Many have been negotiating for long time like Palestinians and Israelis, or blacks and whites in south Africa. "let the foreigners take the decisions" was not something that any other country even considered.

Well it seems to me that a praty that has been unable or unwilling to agree and that also refuse the very concept of external arbitration, is a party that wants one thing - it maximal aims and nothing else.

Do you understand the difference between external arbitration to solve a problem (which is something we accept. You are the ones who refuse to apply the ton of UN resolutions), and external arbitration to run the country? These are two very different things.

Because the Annan plan leaves a possibility for Cypriots to 'come together' over time and agreed partition does not.

I don't think so. Annan plan rewords TCs for staying separate. This is why this 'come together' was definitely not a possibility with the Annan plan.