Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Please tell me Insan. Is it hellenization to ask for what is rightfully yours?

http://www.country-studies.com/cyprus/1 ... nique.html

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/89-140.htm

Cyprus. After the end of the Cypriot civil/international war, UN-sponsored talks
focused on the return of the Greek residents of Varosha in exchange for economic
concessions to the Turkish-Cypriot side, which included opening up the border at
Varosha to allow tourists and businessmen to enter the Turkish-occupied part from Varosha. The resettlement plan would have returned
40,000 Greek refugees to their homes without upsetting the military balance and
the economic concessions would have increased Turkish-Cypriot GDP more than
20%.[b]These negotiations, however, failed because eachparty was more concerned
with what the other party was getting out of the deal than with the direct
benefits of the agreement to itself[/b].

http://www.yale.edu/ycias/globalization ... ay2004.pdf

[-mikkie2-]

These negotiations, however, failed because eachparty was more concerned
with what the other party was getting out of the deal than with the direct
benefits of the agreement to itself.

The statement suggests that BOTH parties were to blame for the failure.

[pantelis]

Erol,
What kind of rights would you give to a GC minority, living in a TC state (say composed of 20%GCs and 80%TCs/TSs?

[erolz]

Erol,
What kind of rights would you give to a GC minority, living in a TC state (say composed of 20%GCs and 80%TCs/TSs?

Do you mean if there was a geographical federal seperation in Cyprus or do you mean if TC had been the numerical majority in a single united Cyprus?

[magikthrill]

Magicthrill,

keep reading about the history of Cyprus. Then talk to your parents and then come back when you realise the role of Greece in Cyprus's history.

I know history. After 74 I feel like its been Turkey thats been meddling in Cyprus more than Greece. You know, since Turkey is occupying the island illegally.

Being 80% of the population does not give them the right to force their hellenic faith etc. down our throats, you respect us and we will respect you.

I never said anything about the 80% having to force its culture down the rest of the countries throat. I respect every human beings culture as long as it is respectful of others. You know, the same way the culture of Kurds should be respected in Turkey...

[pantelis]

Erol said:

Do you mean if there was a geographical federal seperation in Cyprus or do you mean if TC had been the numerical majority in a single united Cyprus?

For me it shouldn't be different either way.
If you have different scenarios for each case, let's see them both.
Shoot!

[erolz]

Erol said:

Do you mean if there was a geographical federal seperation in Cyprus or do you mean if TC had been the numerical majority in a single united Cyprus?

For me it shouldn't be different either way.
If you have different scenarios for each case, let's see them both.
Shoot!

Each community should have an ability to determine it's own future equally. In a united / federated Cyprus this means that each community will have to limit this right to some degree. In a federated and geographicaly Cyprus, for those of each community living as a numerical minroty in the other communites area there is no need for them to have equlaity of communites withion each federated state. They have that through their communites equality in the federal structure. There is only a need for one level of equality of the communites - at the national level. Within each federated state there is no such need. GC (or the numerical majority if you prefer) are free to do what they will in the GC federated area and TC (or the numerical majority) in the TC area. At the central level neither community will be totaly free to do as they will at the expense and against the will of the other.

If you are refering to a hypothetical senario whereby TC were the numerical majority and if TC had behaved in the way GC have since 1960 then yes I would support a federated structure where the GC numerical minorty had a degree of equality with the TC numerical majority.

Of course the two senarios are different. In one the numerical minrotiy community has no effective say in what is done in their own homeland. In the other they do. The idea that if we have a federaded solution then within each federal state we should also have a federated system, and then within each of this sub states we shoulf have a federated system ad infintum is just ridiculous. It is fairly clear hwy you asked this question and how you hoped ot 'trap me' with the answer. Such behavior / tactics from someone so quick to lable me 'negative' is quite rich really. Play your games if you want but personaly I care more about trying to find a solution rather than ways to score points. If I have got you wrong here then appologies. If I have got you wrong it would be no more worng that you have got me before (and without any appologies).

[pantelis]

Although I didn't expect a different answer from you, my friend Erol, I had a small trace of hope you were a bit more open minded.
I wonder if the rest of the TCs, Insan for instance, share the same views with you.
It saddens to realize that I would rather be a minority in a federated USA, as a Cypriot American, than in my own country with the political system you describe above.
You are obviously a taccimist and I respect your opinion.

[Piratis]

Pantelis, the double standards they apply are absolutely obvious.

For them this minority/majority thing is clear: Whenever they are the "numerically less", they will not even use the word minority and they will say that numbers do not matter much. Whenever they are the majority, the "majority rules" is applied and they forget about everything else.

The only solution under these circumstances is that TCs keep 18% of land, and thats it.
In this case they have their 100% self determination, their own country and they don't have to deal at all with the "bad" GCs.
Of course, their mask totally falls when some of them will claim that they should keep more than 18%. Do you need anything else to show you that they are simply using the tanks of Turkey to steal from us what has never belonged to them?

[erolz]

Although I didn't expect a different answer from you, my friend Erol, I had a small trace of hope you were a bit more open minded.

What do you mean open minded? Why did you ask the question yet not say what you consider to be the more open minded system?

Are you suggesting the following. A federated Cyprus made up of two states with a degree of political eqaulity and then within each state the GC within the TC state have a degree of political equality and the TC within the GC state also have the same? If you are do you really think this is sensible or necessary or pratical? I do not and have presented some explaination as to why (because to me the point is that each community should have some degree of political equality within Cyprus and a 'simple' federal system provides this). You on the other hand have presented nothing, just tried to present me as inconsistent, without any 'explaination'

However I would say if the above senario is the requirment of the GC to agree to a settlement , then fine you can have it - however we know that this is not the real 'block' on a settlement, but just a way you seek to 'undermine' my position.

It saddens to realize that I would rather be a minority in a federated USA, as a Cypriot American, than in my own country with the political system you describe above.

You play the same 'game' as Piratis. The issue of political equality is one that applies to COMMUNITES - as individulas we are all equal (as we should be as communites). If you chose to live in the TC federal state in a federal Cyprus you might be a 'minority' within that state as an indivdual but your community would still have equality. Is this really so hard to understand?

You are obviously a taccimist and I respect your opinion.

I do not know what a 'taccimist' is and could not find the word at dictionary.com

Pantelis, the double standards they apply are absolutely obvious.

Really? Of course you hold no double standards do you? This is only something that applies to TC.

For them this minority/majority thing is clear: Whenever they are the "numerically less", they will not even use the word minority and they will say that numbers do not matter much. Whenever they are the majority, the "majority rules" is applied and they forget about everything else.

Can you really be so ignorant as to why being a political minority in Cyprus is such a problem for TC? Do you really not understand why we want and need it?
I want TC as a community to have a degree of political equality in their (shared) homeland and want GC as a community ot have the same. The need for this is clear and self evident to me, given the history of Cyprus.

The only solution under these circumstances is that TCs keep 18% of land, and thats it.
In this case they have their 100% self determination, their own country and they don't have to deal at all with the "bad" GCs.

It may be the only solution biut it one that GC (administration) have NEVER been willing to contemplate. They still would not contemplate such a solution today. Why is that? Is it because you still want the whole Island under GC domination? Because you refuse to share it equally, or divided it. That is the GC position not a TC one.

Of course, their mask totally falls when some of them will claim that they should keep more than 18%.

No the GC mask falls when it is clear that they would not even start negotiations on such a soloution to agree an amount of land to be keep by the TRNC - because such a solution is not acceptablt to them. FACT.

Do you need anything else to show you that they are simply using the tanks of Turkey to steal from us what has never belonged to them?

Do you (as an indivdual) need anything at all to believe that the Cyprus problem is purely a problem of TC being thieves and GC poor victims? Of course you do not. You believe what you want to beleive regardless of evidence or facts.

So I will say again, I do not see a need for political equality between the communites within each federated state (because they already have it where it matters, at the central federal level) but if such is a requirment for GC to accept such a federated Cyprus - then ok we can have that. However it now becomes clear that you still do not want a federated system at all, doesn't it. That this 'wanting the same equality of communites within each federal state' is not a real desire and means to agreeing a settlement, but just an attempt to try and show TC inconsistency.

Really this is all so pathetic. Piratis get your beloved Papadopolus to come to the negotiating table to agree a division of the island into two independent states and we can end this once and for all. When you make that effort and realise that hell is more likely to freeze over before papadopolus would ever consider such a solution, then ask yourself why this is so.