Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tony-4497]

The RoC should propose the lifting of all restrictions on TCs and their full representation in the EU, but only after Turkey returns 19% of the land. This would create a fair situation where the 18% TCs will be holding the proportion of Cyprus they are "entitled" to, i.e. 18%.

The RoC should explain clearly to the EU why this is fair and demand that Turkey returns this land. If Turkey refuses then the RoC should, with the support of EU countries (or some of them), block all accession negotiations until Turkey agrees to do this.

If Turkey accepts, the resulting situation will eventually facilitate a fair solution i.e. after the 2 communities have lived side-by-side for a few years on the portion of land they are fairly entitled to, they can decide, by mutual consent, to form a new partnership (perhaps a form of federation or confederation).

I believe that realistically this is the only way forward that a large majority from both communities would vote for at a referendum at this stage.

[Kikapu]

The problem is, EU in general, does not want Turkey to join the club, and I'm not so sure, Turkey wants to join the EU club either, but both are happy to use Cyprus as the reason for the "train crash", so, no amount of land distribution in Cyprus, is going to change Turkey's future, one way or the other, when it comes to joining the EU.

[pantheman]

The RoC should propose the lifting of all restrictions on TCs and their full representation in the EU, but only after Turkey returns 19% of the land. This would create a fair situation where the 18% TCs will be holding the proportion of Cyprus they are "entitled" to, i.e. 18%.

The RoC should explain clearly to the EU why this is fair and demand that Turkey returns this land. If Turkey refuses then the RoC should, with the support of EU countries (or some of them), block all accession negotiations until Turkey agrees to do this.

If Turkey accepts, the resulting situation will eventually facilitate a fair solution i.e. after the 2 communities have lived side-by-side for a few years on the portion of land they are fairly entitled to, they can decide, by mutual consent, to form a new partnership (perhaps a form of federation or confederation).

I believe that realistically this is the only way forward that a large majority from both communities would vote for at a referendum at this stage.

Tony,

thats all fine and dandy, but isn't everyone forgetting one important point here ? Turkey has committed a major international crime, it has broken many international laws, human rights voilations and many other rules too. Are we to just forget there crimes ? Give turkey a golden handshake and a pat on the back ? If your answer is yes, then why didn't we do this when saddm hussain went into Kuwait ? We should have got the red carpet out for him and given him half of that country.

I say no, turkey canot be allowed to commit such crimes and go unpunished, this amounts to international terrorism (the british and the americans know all about this). This will send messages that its OK to invade a country, (like the US i iraq) commit crimes against humanity and then be rewarded.

Cyprus is one country for cypriots not for turkey to to play its military war games. Your solution is a let off the hook for turkey.

[Nickp]

Nickp, you hve put an interesting argument forward, even though I do not agree with you I respect your point of view. However I would like to point out that when they gain membership that will no longer apply so I fail to see how access to ports have anything to do with occupation of Cyprus.

They have also retracted now ... a bit of a joke really ...... I am surprised the EU hasn't got sick and tired of their undeciciveness of whether they want to join the EU therefore need to comply with EU principles and agreements or not.

You say "when" Turkey gains membership my argument will no longer apply.

That is true, however, until then Turkey is reluctant to give any ground as membership is not guranteed. Why should Turkey come to a big compromise and loose it's interests in Cyprus and end up with no EU membership and the constant threat of Cyprus and Greece to block any ships getting to it from the mediternean. How do you think all those US arms and other logistical supplies will get in.

At the same time, Turkey has no hope in joining under the current conditions with the Cyprus problem, it's going to be near impossible for them to join.

It's a catch 22 for Turkey.

I think the ROC leadership is smart. They don't have the military strenght all the world influence that Turkey has so if they want a fair solution they have to use every EU leverage they can get to pressure Turkey to a fair solution.

If the ROC had taken a traditional Turkish instrangence stance, Turkey wouldn't even have opened talks with the EU. However, it's early days, they will most likely excert the pressure either half way or two thirds through the eu process when Turkey is closer and has invested heavily in the process.

[zan]

The RoC should propose the lifting of all restrictions on TCs and their full representation in the EU, but only after Turkey returns 19% of the land. This would create a fair situation where the 18% TCs will be holding the proportion of Cyprus they are "entitled" to, i.e. 18%.

The RoC should explain clearly to the EU why this is fair and demand that Turkey returns this land. If Turkey refuses then the RoC should, with the support of EU countries (or some of them), block all accession negotiations until Turkey agrees to do this.

If Turkey accepts, the resulting situation will eventually facilitate a fair solution i.e. after the 2 communities have lived side-by-side for a few years on the portion of land they are fairly entitled to, they can decide, by mutual consent, to form a new partnership (perhaps a form of federation or confederation).

I believe that realistically this is the only way forward that a large majority from both communities would vote for at a referendum at this stage.

Tony,

thats all fine and dandy, but isn't everyone forgetting one important point here ? Turkey has committed a major international crime, it has broken many international laws, human rights voilations and many other rules too. Are we to just forget there crimes ? Give turkey a golden handshake and a pat on the back ? If your answer is yes, then why didn't we do this when saddm hussain went into Kuwait ? We should have got the red carpet out for him and given him half of that country.

I say no, turkey canot be allowed to commit such crimes and go unpunished, this amounts to international terrorism (the british and the americans know all about this). This will send messages that its OK to invade a country, (like the US i iraq) commit crimes against humanity and then be rewarded.

Cyprus is one country for cypriots not for turkey to to play its military war games. Your solution is a let off the hook for turkey.

It worked for Greece and the RoC.

[Tony-4497]

The RoC should propose the lifting of all restrictions on TCs and their full representation in the EU, but only after Turkey returns 19% of the land. This would create a fair situation where the 18% TCs will be holding the proportion of Cyprus they are "entitled" to, i.e. 18%.

The RoC should explain clearly to the EU why this is fair and demand that Turkey returns this land. If Turkey refuses then the RoC should, with the support of EU countries (or some of them), block all accession negotiations until Turkey agrees to do this.

If Turkey accepts, the resulting situation will eventually facilitate a fair solution i.e. after the 2 communities have lived side-by-side for a few years on the portion of land they are fairly entitled to, they can decide, by mutual consent, to form a new partnership (perhaps a form of federation or confederation).

I believe that realistically this is the only way forward that a large majority from both communities would vote for at a referendum at this stage.

Tony,

thats all fine and dandy, but isn't everyone forgetting one important point here ? Turkey has committed a major international crime, it has broken many international laws, human rights voilations and many other rules too. Are we to just forget there crimes ? Give turkey a golden handshake and a pat on the back ? If your answer is yes, then why didn't we do this when saddm hussain went into Kuwait ? We should have got the red carpet out for him and given him half of that country.

I say no, turkey canot be allowed to commit such crimes and go unpunished, this amounts to international terrorism (the british and the americans know all about this). This will send messages that its OK to invade a country, (like the US i iraq) commit crimes against humanity and then be rewarded.

Cyprus is one country for cypriots not for turkey to to play its military war games. Your solution is a let off the hook for turkey.

Unfortunately, our leadership made grave mistakes in the past, for which we have been paying and will continue to pay. First was Makarios's idiotic agreement to grant political equality, veto etc to an 18% minority in the 1960 deal and subsequent even more idiotic attempt to take those rights away from TCs by changing the agreed constitution. Then, even worse, the coup of the Greek Junta, Grivas and the EOKA B morons which allowed Turkey to invade.

The combined effect of the above means that both legally and morally, at least as far as the international community is concerned, the TCs are entitled to their own area - we have already to agreed to a federal structure granting the TCs extensive autonomy.

Rather than having a messy and unfair structure like the Annan plan, or just allowing the existing status quo to continue for decades (which carries the risk of the occupied areas turning into a Taiwan and essentially being legalised as they are), I would much rather see a clean solution now, based on proportionality, on a temporary basis, which can later evolve into a more integrated (con)federal country, if all agree.

You are right that Turkey carried out a lot of crimes, but unfortunately our stupidity has allowed this to happen and I think we need to look ahead and minimise our losses rather than harbour under the illusion that we will one day take over the entire island and simply assimilate the TCs. We need to understand that, due to our prior strategic mistakes, ANY solution will treat TCs not as a minority, but as equal partners in a state, with veto rights etc, which I think in practice will never work, as we will always view it as fundamentally unfair and hence major problems are bound to emerge. Accordingly, the only realistic way forward for now is separation, on a fair basis with respect to land.

[humanist]

Tony thank you for your response ...... Turkey will join there is no doubt about that and I hope that it does, so long as it meats all obligations that other countries are faced with.

I disagree with you on the land portion of 18%. I would like to see a bizonal/ bicommunal Cyprus and would even suggest that Varosha fall within the Northern State. That would be predominantly made up of Turkish Speaking Cypriot parliamentarians somethiong similar to the Annan proposal.

May be it wasn't so idiotic, perhaps the man was a visionary and accepted that Turkish Speaking Cypriots had as much right to Cyprus and Cyprus' political life as did Greek Speaking Cypriots.

As far as EOKA B is concerned well that was a stupid move if I ever heard of one. What the hell was all that about anyway. I was only six at the time.

[Kifeas]

So ladies and gentlemen, if we put aside the blah blah responses, there is no legal impediment to direct flights fro UK and others to TRNC. Indeed, if it was otherwise, my friend Papadop as a lawyer would be first to force Turkey to stop it.

For those who are interested in the legal side of things (DT and Pyro are excused here) can look up the Chicago Convention at
http://www.condonlaw.com/attachments/chicago_1944.pdf
Pay great attention to article 2 which talks about Suzerainty, Protection or Mandate. According to ECHR TRNC is under the control of Turkey, so no problem here.

It seems that 2007 is going to be very hot for my friend Papadop. If he goes and someone more reasonable replaces him we may have peace in Cyprus. So I would like to take this opportunity to wish peace and a happy Xmas for everybody.
ismet

The northern (occupied) area of Cyprus is an area under the de jure sovereignty of the RoC, which is de facto illegally occupied by Turkey. It is not an area that constitutes a separate geographical or people’s entity, which may come under the suzerainty or protection of another state on the basis of a valid agreement. It is not an area currently inhabited by its legal population, which by exercising its free-will and self-determination has decided to enter into a suzerainty or protection treaty or agreement with another more powerful state, but it is an area of which the majority of its legal population has been expelled (ethnically cleansed) as a result of an illegal invasion and occupation, and in its place a population originating from the occupying power (Turkey) has been illegally transferred.

The above are findings documented and /or concluded by the UN in its resolutions and the Council of Europe, and they are also verified by the International Court of Human Rights in the “Cyprus vs. Turkey” and “Loizidou vs. Turkey” cases.

Here is a definition of the term "suzerainty," which shows that it cannot apply in the case of occupied northern Cyprus, unless someone (elko) wants to take us back to the years of the Ottoman Empire during which no international law was in existence.
http://www.answers.com/suzerainty

[Kifeas]

Tony thank you for your response ...... Turkey will join there is no doubt about that and I hope that it does, so long as it meats all obligations that other countries are faced with.

I disagree with you on the land portion of 18%. I would like to see a bizonal/ bicommunal Cyprus and would even suggest that Varosha fall within the Northern State. That would be predominantly made up of Turkish Speaking Cypriot parliamentarians somethiong similar to the Annan proposal.
May be it wasn't so idiotic, perhaps the man was a visionary and accepted that Turkish Speaking Cypriots had as much right to Cyprus and Cyprus' political life as did Greek Speaking Cypriots.

As far as EOKA B is concerned well that was a stupid move if I ever heard of one. What the hell was all that about anyway. I was only six at the time.

Humanist, you sound to be very confused!

[Kifeas]

I dont find there is anything wrong with direct flights to the TRNC if in exchange the CY can fly over that area also to cut their time in transit. It is win-win. Why do we have to object to every darned little thing...

Unless "andri_cy" is a Turkish cause propagandist masqueraded into a Greek Cypriot, she is just another case of a very confused Greek Cypriot that has lost all sense of what she is talking about!