Hear hear! the bulgarian turk coming here giving us advices as if he knows better than us?
Re, do you understand the Anan Plan was touching our very existence and we did not have the luxury to be carried away by ANY politician? Do you understand that Papadopoulos decision to address the public from TV one week before the referendum did not affect not even 2% of the peoples decision? Do you understand that each and every refugee village was arranging meeetings of the refugees where educated people and skilled lawyers analysed each and every aspect?
Do you think we had the luxury to beleive whatever any Politician even the President told us? For your information Papadopoulos just took power 6 months before. Klerides was our president for 10 years and he lost the elections with 45% in favour of him. He said vote "YES".
Stop this nonsense you are an outsider you don't know.
Why we rejected the Annan Plan
18 posts
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by Pyrpolizer » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:59 pm
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by Pyrpolizer » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:09 pm
Just to give you a sense of the climate regarding the Anan Plan.
I was at a wedding a few days before the referendum. People were in queue to congratulate the couple and even at that queue they started discussing the Anan Plan. I remember one of those was a fanatic supporter shouting so much, that made the bride start crying and taking the microphone she said, please respect this day this is our wedding here not a place to shout about the Anan Plan.
So all those people got out of the queue went a few meters away, and there they shouted and screamed more than what we do in this forum.Nobody silenced anyone, it was discussions even at weddings, in the end everybody had a strong opinion. Very few among those who voted yes had any arguments to back up his decision. They just voted hoping everything would work.Just hoping.
I was at a wedding a few days before the referendum. People were in queue to congratulate the couple and even at that queue they started discussing the Anan Plan. I remember one of those was a fanatic supporter shouting so much, that made the bride start crying and taking the microphone she said, please respect this day this is our wedding here not a place to shout about the Anan Plan.
So all those people got out of the queue went a few meters away, and there they shouted and screamed more than what we do in this forum.Nobody silenced anyone, it was discussions even at weddings, in the end everybody had a strong opinion. Very few among those who voted yes had any arguments to back up his decision. They just voted hoping everything would work.Just hoping.
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by Pyrpolizer » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:18 pm
So to make a long story short.
It was not only because the Anan Plan was taking away too many of our rights.
This could be discussed with the TCs at a later stage even now and making mutual compromises come up to some
agreement.
IT WAS NOT PROVIDING FOR A STATE, IT WAS A RECIPE FOR A CHAOS!
This is what makes me mad when some TCs say lets bring the Anan Plan back. To bring what back? Something that is only good for the dustbin? Something that needs EVERYTHING corrected?
It was not only because the Anan Plan was taking away too many of our rights.
This could be discussed with the TCs at a later stage even now and making mutual compromises come up to some
agreement.
IT WAS NOT PROVIDING FOR A STATE, IT WAS A RECIPE FOR A CHAOS!
This is what makes me mad when some TCs say lets bring the Anan Plan back. To bring what back? Something that is only good for the dustbin? Something that needs EVERYTHING corrected?
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by DT. » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:13 pm
I read it, carefully analysed and made my mind up to vote no. I was in the UK so I didn't even get to see any local press coverage which could have affected me. Tha plan was simply suicide for any GC. I still can't find one thing that the TC's had to compromise on.
Property: only a small percentage of refugees would return
Settlers: 45,000 get to stay. There are some TC reports that still insist there are not even 45,000 settlers in the occupied areas!!
millitary: Turkish troops stay on the island
Gaurantees: Turkey maintains and improves its treaty of gaurantee
and many many moretc sensitive issues which got fully resolved....where exactly was the compromise?
Property: only a small percentage of refugees would return
Settlers: 45,000 get to stay. There are some TC reports that still insist there are not even 45,000 settlers in the occupied areas!!
millitary: Turkish troops stay on the island
Gaurantees: Turkey maintains and improves its treaty of gaurantee
and many many moretc sensitive issues which got fully resolved....where exactly was the compromise?
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by souroul » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:27 pm
i feel ashamed that even 25% of the GC's said yes. of course, the 20-30 or so TC's that said no are also dumb as bricks
why?
here
Reasons for the approval of the Annan Plan Turkish Cypriot view
* Reunification was desired for economic reasons.
* Many Turkish Cypriots no longer perceived the Greek Cypriots as a threat, especially in the light of the strictly bi-zonal proposition of the Annan plan.
* Turkish Cypriots would receive considerable constitutional power in the United Cyprus Republic that the Annan plan proposed, over-proportional to their percentage of the population.
* The Turkish Cypriot component state would still, even after territorial cessation of some areas to the Greek Cypriot component state, make up 28.5 percent of the total area of Cyprus, including large economically important areas that where inhabitated exclusively by Greek Cypriots prior to the division of Cyprus in 1975.
* The right of return of Greek Cypriots to their homes in the areas coming under the control of the Turkish Cypriot component state would be strictly limited if not, insome cases, forbidden, thus the possibility of Turkish Cypriots becoming a minority in their respective component state would not exist.
* The guarantor powers to the constitution of Cyprus would retain their powers as such, thus Turkey would still have the arguable right to intervene in Cypriot affairs, most definitely on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots.
Reasons for the rejection of the Annan Plan Greek Cypriot Point of view
* The Ethnic groups in Cyprus are Greek 77%, Turkish 18%, other 5% of the population. (2001) The Annan plan equates the representation of the two major ethnic groups in the to be Senate and in the Supreme Court giving 50-50 representation to the two communities. The majority becomes minority in important decision centers.
* The plan created a confederation even though it utilized the term "federation" because there was no hierarchy of laws, while central authority emanated from the so-called component states. Note that the United States abandoned its original confederal structure because it was unworkable. In 1783, a federal constitution was established containing a clear federal supremacy clause. The Supreme Court composed of equal numbers of Greek Cypriot (77% of population) and Turkish Cypriot (18% of population) judges, plus three foreign judges; thus foreign actors would cast deciding votes.
* The Plan did not include a settlement regarding the repatriation of Turkish settlers living on Greek Cypriot owned land in the 'Northern Cyprus', while after 19 years, the possibility of abolishing the derogation of 5% of Greeks and Turkish citizens who could settle in Cyprus, is obvious, and the danger of a permanent mass settling of Cyprus by Turkey is visible.
* Nearly all the Turkish settlers would be granted citizenship or residence rights leading to citizenship. The central government would have limited control towards future Turkish Immigration. Those settlers opting to return to Turkey would be compensated by Cyprus and Greek Cypriots. Even though Turkey systematically brought in the settlers to alter the demography of the island, it had no responsibility for their Repatriation.
* The Plan simply disregarded the plain language and clear meaning of the Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, which prohibits colonization by an occupying power. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
* The Plan did not deal in full with the demilitarisation of the illegal 'TRNC', and Greek Cypriots felt they had no reason to believe Turkish promises concerning the withdrawal of troops.
* Cyprus would be excluded from the European Common Defense and Foreign Policy, while Turkish troops would remain in Cyprus even after the accession of Turkey to the EU with intervention rights (a military invasion - occasionally used euphemistically) in the Greek Cypriot component state.
* Many Greek Cypriots interpreted the Right of Return policy as to be seriously flawed, meaning only 20% of Greek Cypriot refugees would be able to return over a time frame of 25 years, whereas Turkish Cypriots would have had full right of return.The plan denied to all Cypriots rights enjoyed by all other EU citizens (right of free movement and residence, the right to apply to work in any position (including national civil services, the right to vote).
* Turkish Cypriots would have gained all the basic demands it made, from the first day of the implementation of the solution. To be exact, 24 hours after the holding of the referendum. In contrast, everything that the Greek Cypriots were aspiring to achieve, would have postponed without guarantees and depend upon the good will of Turkey to fulfil the obligations it undertakes. They are also subject to the precondition that all would have gone well.
* The return of the Turkish occupied land will take place in the period between three and a half months and three and a half years from the moment the solution is signed with no guarantees whatsoever that this shall be implemented. The Cypriot-Greek proposal of placing these areas under the control of the UN Peace Keeping Force and not the Turkish army has been rejected.
* The Plan did not address the issue of the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) on the island, although parts of the SBAs would be transferred to the governments of the two consituent states.
* The British were granted rights to unilaterally define the continental shelf and territorial waters along two base areas and to claim potential mineral rights. Under the 1959-1960 London Zurich agreements, Britain did not have such rights (see the 2nd annex to the Additional Protocol to the 1959 Treaty of Establishment).
* The plan absolved Turkey of all responsibility for its invasion of Cyprus and its murders, rapes, destruction of property and churches and looting and forcing approximately 200,000 Greek Cypriots from their homes and property. The Cyprus government filed applications to the European Commission on Human Rights on September 17, 1974 and on March 21, 1975. The Commission issued its report on the charges made in the two applications on July 10, 1976. In it the Commission found Turkey guilty of violating the following articles of the European Convention on Human Rights:
1.. Article 2 - by the killing of innocent civilians committed on a substantial scale;
2.. Article 3 - by the rape of women of all ages from 12 to 71;
3.. Article 3 - by inhuman treatment of prisoners and persons detained;
4.. Article 5 - by deprivation of liberty with regard to detainees and missing persons - a continuing violation;
5.. Article 8 - by displacement of persons creating more than 180,000 Greek Cypriot refugees,and be refusing to allow the refugees to return to their homes.
* The plan failed to provide payment by Turkey:
1.. for the lives of innocent civilians killed by the Turkish army;
2.. for the victims of rape by the Turkish army;
3.. for the vast destruction of property and churches by the Turkish army; and
4.. for the substantial looting by the Turkish army.
* The Plan subverted the property rights of the Greek Cypriots and other legal owners of property in the occupied area:
•by prohibiting recourse to European courts on property issues;
•by withdrawing all pending cases at the European Court of Human Rights and transferring them to local courts;
•by allowing Turkish Cypriots and illegal mainland Turk settlers/colonists to keep Greek Cypriot homes and property they were illegally given following Turkey's invasion of Cyprus and not having to reimburse the rightful owners of the property for 30 years of illegal use;
•by a highly complicated, ambiguous and uncertain regime for resolving property issues and which is based on the principle that real property owners can ultimately be forced to give up their property rights which would violate the European Convention on Human Rights and international law. The Greek Cypriot property owners would have to be reimbursed by the to be federal treasury which would be funded overwhelmingly by the Greek Cypriots, meaning that Greek Cypriots would be reimbursing themselves.
* The Plan would have the effect of protecting those British citizens who illegally bought Greek Cypriot property from settlers or persons who are not owners; in the occupied north of Cyprus. They would, in effect, not be held responsible for their illegal action.
* The cost of economic reunification would be borne by the Greek Cypriots. The reunification cost has been estimated close to $20b
* Following Annan 5 plan the Greek Cypriots would not have been allowed to make up more than 6% of the population in any single village in the Turkish controlled areas in the north thus they would have been prevented from setting up their own schools for their children and would not have even been able to give birth once this quota was reached.
According to UN 260 resolution Genocide is: (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
* The agreement places time restrictions in the right of free, permanent installation of Greek Cypriots back to their homes and properties in the to be Turkish Cypriot state, which constitutes a deviation from the European Union practices. Those Greek Cypriot refugees that would return to their homes in regions under Turkish Cypriot administration would have no local civil rights, because the political representatives of Turkish Cypriot state would be elected only from Turkish Cypriots.
* The functional weaknesses of the Plan endanger, inter alia, the smooth activity and participation of Cyprus, with one voice, in the European Union. While the Greek Cypriots have with many sacrifices achieved Cyprus accession to the European Union, the Greek Cypriots could very easily be led to the neutralization of the accession until the adoption of all necessary federal and regional legal measures or the loss of the benefits of the accession or the facing of obstacles in Cyprus participation in the Economic and Monetary Union and other European institutions.
* The Economy of Cyprus would have been separate with the plan. There will be no common Monetary policy, fiscal policy and no investments by Greek Cypriot businesses shall be allowed in the Turkish Cypriot constituent state.
why?
here
Reasons for the approval of the Annan Plan Turkish Cypriot view
* Reunification was desired for economic reasons.
* Many Turkish Cypriots no longer perceived the Greek Cypriots as a threat, especially in the light of the strictly bi-zonal proposition of the Annan plan.
* Turkish Cypriots would receive considerable constitutional power in the United Cyprus Republic that the Annan plan proposed, over-proportional to their percentage of the population.
* The Turkish Cypriot component state would still, even after territorial cessation of some areas to the Greek Cypriot component state, make up 28.5 percent of the total area of Cyprus, including large economically important areas that where inhabitated exclusively by Greek Cypriots prior to the division of Cyprus in 1975.
* The right of return of Greek Cypriots to their homes in the areas coming under the control of the Turkish Cypriot component state would be strictly limited if not, insome cases, forbidden, thus the possibility of Turkish Cypriots becoming a minority in their respective component state would not exist.
* The guarantor powers to the constitution of Cyprus would retain their powers as such, thus Turkey would still have the arguable right to intervene in Cypriot affairs, most definitely on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots.
Reasons for the rejection of the Annan Plan Greek Cypriot Point of view
* The Ethnic groups in Cyprus are Greek 77%, Turkish 18%, other 5% of the population. (2001) The Annan plan equates the representation of the two major ethnic groups in the to be Senate and in the Supreme Court giving 50-50 representation to the two communities. The majority becomes minority in important decision centers.
* The plan created a confederation even though it utilized the term "federation" because there was no hierarchy of laws, while central authority emanated from the so-called component states. Note that the United States abandoned its original confederal structure because it was unworkable. In 1783, a federal constitution was established containing a clear federal supremacy clause. The Supreme Court composed of equal numbers of Greek Cypriot (77% of population) and Turkish Cypriot (18% of population) judges, plus three foreign judges; thus foreign actors would cast deciding votes.
* The Plan did not include a settlement regarding the repatriation of Turkish settlers living on Greek Cypriot owned land in the 'Northern Cyprus', while after 19 years, the possibility of abolishing the derogation of 5% of Greeks and Turkish citizens who could settle in Cyprus, is obvious, and the danger of a permanent mass settling of Cyprus by Turkey is visible.
* Nearly all the Turkish settlers would be granted citizenship or residence rights leading to citizenship. The central government would have limited control towards future Turkish Immigration. Those settlers opting to return to Turkey would be compensated by Cyprus and Greek Cypriots. Even though Turkey systematically brought in the settlers to alter the demography of the island, it had no responsibility for their Repatriation.
* The Plan simply disregarded the plain language and clear meaning of the Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, which prohibits colonization by an occupying power. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
* The Plan did not deal in full with the demilitarisation of the illegal 'TRNC', and Greek Cypriots felt they had no reason to believe Turkish promises concerning the withdrawal of troops.
* Cyprus would be excluded from the European Common Defense and Foreign Policy, while Turkish troops would remain in Cyprus even after the accession of Turkey to the EU with intervention rights (a military invasion - occasionally used euphemistically) in the Greek Cypriot component state.
* Many Greek Cypriots interpreted the Right of Return policy as to be seriously flawed, meaning only 20% of Greek Cypriot refugees would be able to return over a time frame of 25 years, whereas Turkish Cypriots would have had full right of return.The plan denied to all Cypriots rights enjoyed by all other EU citizens (right of free movement and residence, the right to apply to work in any position (including national civil services, the right to vote).
* Turkish Cypriots would have gained all the basic demands it made, from the first day of the implementation of the solution. To be exact, 24 hours after the holding of the referendum. In contrast, everything that the Greek Cypriots were aspiring to achieve, would have postponed without guarantees and depend upon the good will of Turkey to fulfil the obligations it undertakes. They are also subject to the precondition that all would have gone well.
* The return of the Turkish occupied land will take place in the period between three and a half months and three and a half years from the moment the solution is signed with no guarantees whatsoever that this shall be implemented. The Cypriot-Greek proposal of placing these areas under the control of the UN Peace Keeping Force and not the Turkish army has been rejected.
* The Plan did not address the issue of the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) on the island, although parts of the SBAs would be transferred to the governments of the two consituent states.
* The British were granted rights to unilaterally define the continental shelf and territorial waters along two base areas and to claim potential mineral rights. Under the 1959-1960 London Zurich agreements, Britain did not have such rights (see the 2nd annex to the Additional Protocol to the 1959 Treaty of Establishment).
* The plan absolved Turkey of all responsibility for its invasion of Cyprus and its murders, rapes, destruction of property and churches and looting and forcing approximately 200,000 Greek Cypriots from their homes and property. The Cyprus government filed applications to the European Commission on Human Rights on September 17, 1974 and on March 21, 1975. The Commission issued its report on the charges made in the two applications on July 10, 1976. In it the Commission found Turkey guilty of violating the following articles of the European Convention on Human Rights:
1.. Article 2 - by the killing of innocent civilians committed on a substantial scale;
2.. Article 3 - by the rape of women of all ages from 12 to 71;
3.. Article 3 - by inhuman treatment of prisoners and persons detained;
4.. Article 5 - by deprivation of liberty with regard to detainees and missing persons - a continuing violation;
5.. Article 8 - by displacement of persons creating more than 180,000 Greek Cypriot refugees,and be refusing to allow the refugees to return to their homes.
* The plan failed to provide payment by Turkey:
1.. for the lives of innocent civilians killed by the Turkish army;
2.. for the victims of rape by the Turkish army;
3.. for the vast destruction of property and churches by the Turkish army; and
4.. for the substantial looting by the Turkish army.
* The Plan subverted the property rights of the Greek Cypriots and other legal owners of property in the occupied area:
•by prohibiting recourse to European courts on property issues;
•by withdrawing all pending cases at the European Court of Human Rights and transferring them to local courts;
•by allowing Turkish Cypriots and illegal mainland Turk settlers/colonists to keep Greek Cypriot homes and property they were illegally given following Turkey's invasion of Cyprus and not having to reimburse the rightful owners of the property for 30 years of illegal use;
•by a highly complicated, ambiguous and uncertain regime for resolving property issues and which is based on the principle that real property owners can ultimately be forced to give up their property rights which would violate the European Convention on Human Rights and international law. The Greek Cypriot property owners would have to be reimbursed by the to be federal treasury which would be funded overwhelmingly by the Greek Cypriots, meaning that Greek Cypriots would be reimbursing themselves.
* The Plan would have the effect of protecting those British citizens who illegally bought Greek Cypriot property from settlers or persons who are not owners; in the occupied north of Cyprus. They would, in effect, not be held responsible for their illegal action.
* The cost of economic reunification would be borne by the Greek Cypriots. The reunification cost has been estimated close to $20b
* Following Annan 5 plan the Greek Cypriots would not have been allowed to make up more than 6% of the population in any single village in the Turkish controlled areas in the north thus they would have been prevented from setting up their own schools for their children and would not have even been able to give birth once this quota was reached.
According to UN 260 resolution Genocide is: (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
* The agreement places time restrictions in the right of free, permanent installation of Greek Cypriots back to their homes and properties in the to be Turkish Cypriot state, which constitutes a deviation from the European Union practices. Those Greek Cypriot refugees that would return to their homes in regions under Turkish Cypriot administration would have no local civil rights, because the political representatives of Turkish Cypriot state would be elected only from Turkish Cypriots.
* The functional weaknesses of the Plan endanger, inter alia, the smooth activity and participation of Cyprus, with one voice, in the European Union. While the Greek Cypriots have with many sacrifices achieved Cyprus accession to the European Union, the Greek Cypriots could very easily be led to the neutralization of the accession until the adoption of all necessary federal and regional legal measures or the loss of the benefits of the accession or the facing of obstacles in Cyprus participation in the Economic and Monetary Union and other European institutions.
* The Economy of Cyprus would have been separate with the plan. There will be no common Monetary policy, fiscal policy and no investments by Greek Cypriot businesses shall be allowed in the Turkish Cypriot constituent state.
- souroul
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by paaul12 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:06 pm
Why we rejected the Annan Plan
It's important to understand the complexity of the human brain, but maybe there is something lacking in the brain processing for Greek Cypriots, just a thought, I might be wrong, but don’t think I am on this one, it was a great plan, everyone said so. UN EU
It's important to understand the complexity of the human brain, but maybe there is something lacking in the brain processing for Greek Cypriots, just a thought, I might be wrong, but don’t think I am on this one, it was a great plan, everyone said so. UN EU
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by Klik » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:22 pm
paaul12 wrote:It's important to understand the complexity of the human brain, but maybe there is something lacking in the brain processing for...
I'm gonna use some of your words
We don't have to understand the complexity of your brain, because you are lacking the brain processing, and even lack the brain itself
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by paaul12 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:47 pm
paaul12 wrote:
It's important to understand the complexity of the human brain, but maybe there is something lacking in the brain processing for...
I'm gonna use some of your words Wink
We don't have to understand the complexity of your brain, because you are lacking the brain processing, and even lack the brain itself Cool
Whats up klik, touch a nerve
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