Cyprus-Forum.com

[pitsilos]

skipper

1...wouldn't be easier to set up a company in the roc to handle all your imports?
2...isn't the VAT a company expence and is deductable from the VAT you receive when you sell the goods?

what about undervaluing the invoice from overseas and show a bigger quantity? that will bring your tax level down. yes the company will show more profit and you will be up for company tax, but then you claim you wrote a lot of the staff off because they were defective in the first place.

you could also export empty boxes, with an invoive that says anything you want, to someone in turkey and claim the paid VAT from the North. or when they arrive in turkey and they are empty cry on top of your lungs you been robbed and put an insurance claim.

i hate paying fucking taxes.

[Alexis]

With respect if you want examples of "oppression" you just have to look at Iraq and many African countries like Zimbabwe and Rwanda. That is why in my opinion the word "oppression" was a little too strong when referring to what happened to Cypriots.

hi stuballstu,

With all due respect to yourself (and I do), please don't put words in my mouth. I never compared the refugees plight to that of others in Africa or the Middle East and as you rightly say in comparison the problems and suffering of the Cypriots does not compare to that of some other countries. That was not my point, simply that to say that GC refugees were not oppressed when forcibly driven from their homes and then denied access to them is utter rubbish in my opinion.
Anyway, I recognise we are well off topic so I'll get back on. Will refugees apply to the property commission in the North? Well imo it's up to them. What the commission won't solve are the refugees rights to go and settle in their native villages with the money they are compensated with. I'm realistic, many refugees won't or can't get their original properties back so compensation must be the way forward (as pointed out in Annan), but imo not only should that be a fair compensation (not as in Annan) but it should be met by Turkey and refugees should be given the choice to return and settle in their original villages. Many do not agree with this but that is my take on right of return of refugees. If permanent restrictions on residence are insisted upon by the TC side - remembering that this will be under the umbrella of a united europe in which anyone will be allowed to settle in Northern Cyprus - then the GC refugees should not be included in this. Moreover if non-Cypriot settlers are also to be allowed to stay, something I strongly back due to humanitarian reasons and the fact that many have been here for many years, not allowing refugees to settle in their original villages is highly hypocritical imo. I consider this to be a fair compromise given the circumstances in Cyprus.

[Pyrpolizer]

Like I said the TCCC had the authority from 1960 to deal with commerce from the with regards to TC's, its in the 1960 consitution, you know the one that GC's still say is in force.

There is no such thing in the constitution. I believe you confuse the Communal Chamber which that according to constitution deals with matters of relegion and education with the Chamber of Commerce. Nowhere in the world any chamber of commerce has Government Excecutive power. If at a later stage the TC Chamber of commerce was granted authorisation by RoC to do some certificates that’s a totally different story. For your information today each and every town has its own chamber of Commerce. Imagine the chamber of Commerce of Paphos starting issuing certificates and doing exports to Europe!!!

You are completely wrong with the reason why exports stopped, what happened was upto a certain time (1987 I think but I cant be sure) certificates where stamped by the TCCC with RoC stamps, the authorities here (in their infinite wisdom) decided they wanted TRNC stamps, the GC's noticed this so changed their stamps also.. then in the early 90's a GC company in the UK took the UK government to the high court about TC patatoe imports, the high court ruled that this was an EU matter so it went to the ECJ which finally ruled that the stamps where not recognised and so phytosanitary cerificates did not pass and the products could not benefit from reduced duty.

None of these exports where ever said to have come from Turkey as if they had there would be high duty put on them. I cant comment on the mixing as this would have most likely happened after.

If this is true then what you are telling me is the TCs stopped their exports to Europe by their own initiative, without even the RoC putting any obstacles as to the legal status of Famagusta port. Then you should tell this to the TCs who think the so called embargo is imposed by us and not by themselves.

Like I said in my previous post, the EU is basically stamping and checking things in the north its not the RoC as per the regulation, sure they voted as the 25 members to allow it but EU officers are not working as proxy for the RoC. In light of this, if goods where deemed to have broken the rules the GC's would not be liable for a fine since they where not the ones that certified the goods.

Well if it suits you to believe that the 24 Countries of Europe decided they would jump in one of the member states (at an area where the Aquis is presumably suspended), start issuing phytosanitary and other health cerificates by themselves, appoint a local chamber of commerce issue certificates of Origin,whereas the 25th member which is the concerned party would have no option but to sign whatever they decided, then so be it. I imply to you that this was not the case. The case was that the EU wanted RoC to find a way so that TC products are exported. In fact there were alternative senarios to the TCCC issuing certificates, but in the end RoC chose that to enpower Ali Erel.

No they dont, at the Green line the officer just checks that the documentation is authentic and the the goods match the description, after that the goods have the status as "Community goods".

It depends on the product. For example dairy products don’t go so light checks as you think. Furthermore the procedure assumes to check whether the products are in same good condition as per date they were certified. True they become community goods after they cross the green line. The question is can the travel all over Europe just like that? Lets see --- >

In respect to the certificate of origin documentation, from Article 5:
1. Goods which are allowed to cross the line shall not be subject to export formalities.
However, the necessary equivalent documentation shall be provided, in full respect of Cypriot internal legislation, by the authorities of the Republic of Cyprus upon request.

The T2L is NOT the certificate of Origin. That is issued by the TCCC. The T2L is the cerificate that allows goods to move from the Country of Origin to other EU Countries.This is where RoC actually intervenes. We are not talking for exports but for movements from now on. Even if the products are fully certified by TCCC and the EU officials to be according to regulation, without a T2L certificate the products are condidered non EU and the receipient will pay both VAT and import duties. In case the products stayed in the RoC for some time and then gone to the port for export then the products are checked once again at the port and supplied with new sanitary certificates. The certificates of Origin of the TCCC however are still valid.

To give you a real life example suppose the EU officials and the TCCC issue you all the certificates you need. You send those certificates to your clent in UK, however you send the goods via Turkey. The receipient gets the goods gets all the EU certificates but gets no T2L. He pays VAT and import duty as if the products came from China. Furthermore the products can no longer move anywhere else in Europe unless they pay taxes and VAT for each and every move.

The Tax case is definitely paying twice, taxed once in the TRNC and again in the RoC but the VAT is n't really paying twice and as such is bad terminology.

There are two cases where there is a VAT problem, the first is if I purchase raw materials from the south the company selling them to me has to to charge me VAT because I dont have a RoC VAT number and it cant be classed as an export. The second case is if I order goods from the EU to be picked up in the south the EU company cant sell them to me without VAT because I dont have a EU VAT number.

I could get my parts via Turkey, normally containers get sent to Mersin port in Turkey where they are loaded onto another ship, for this there is the extra unloading, storage and reloading fees, plus the extra shipping fees. However this is only is useful if you are handling containers as they dont leave the free port. So what do I for a package? I have to get a company in Turkey to buy the goods on my behalf, get it delivered to them, they then have to sell it to me with a profit and fill in the relative customs declaration and pay the courier to send it to the north where once I recieve it I have to pay duty (and VAT but that is reclaimed). There are other issues aswell that in the end it just make sense to outsource it to a Turkish company who can handle the logistcs along with the lower labour costs it ends up costing you less and is more practicle. I still make some money, but I dont employ any TC's and the local economy does n't benefit either, but hey atleast the Turkish company gets a little.

So is this a viable bussiness ONLY if carried out with cheap labour in Turkey? If this is so then you have to abide to this fact.The VAT and the zero tax on European products are set by the EU to actually discourage such bussiness. There are thousands of factories all over Europe who would like to manufacture their products in China or India for peanuts and then import them in EU with no VAT and no tax. This can’t be done. Yet the labour in those countries is so cheap that companies still make a hell of profit even if they pay VAT and tax. So in your case it is simply a choice that you have to make.

Now if you think your bussiness is viable to be exceuted with Cypriot labour that’s a different story. You have to register at the VAT office of RoC, and also pay taxes as everyone else. The matter of double taxes is not the problem of the Roc it is a problem of the "trnc administration" and you should apply pressure to them to solve it. For your information however the VAT will cost you nothing in RoC (it is just a + - figure) whereas your profits upto 10,000 pounds are totally tax free. If you make much more profits then the corporate tax is about 20%. And as pitsillos said you need a good accountant that will enable you cheat as much as possible.

I hope my information is helpful.

NB. Do you view the RoC as a foreign country that just puts obstacles on you? Would you never register for VAT in RoC feeling you don’t want to be represented by it?

[stuballstu]

Alexis wrote

hi stuballstu,

With all due respect to yourself (and I do), please don't put words in my mouth. I never compared the refugees plight to that of others in Africa or the Middle East and as you rightly say in comparison the problems and suffering of the Cypriots does not compare to that of some other countries. That was not my point, simply that to say that GC refugees were not oppressed when forcibly driven from their homes and then denied access to them is utter rubbish in my opinion.
Anyway, I recognise we are well off topic so I'll get back on. Will refugees apply to the property commission in the North? Well imo it's up to them. What the commission won't solve are the refugees rights to go and settle in their native villages with the money they are compensated with. I'm realistic, many refugees won't or can't get their original properties back so compensation must be the way forward (as pointed out in Annan), but imo not only should that be a fair compensation (not as in Annan) but it should be met by Turkey and refugees should be given the choice to return and settle in their original villages. Many do not agree with this but that is my take on right of return of refugees. If permanent restrictions on residence are insisted upon by the TC side - remembering that this will be under the umbrella of a united europe in which anyone will be allowed to settle in Northern Cyprus - then the GC refugees should not be included in this. Moreover if non-Cypriot settlers are also to be allowed to stay, something I strongly back due to humanitarian reasons and the fact that many have been here for many years, not allowing refugees to settle in their original villages is highly hypocritical imo. I consider this to be a fair compromise given the circumstances in Cyprus

Alexis

Sorry I was not trying to put words in anyones mouth apologies for any mis-understanding.

Back to the origin of the thread. I agree with almost everything you say reference refugees, compensation. The only stumbling block with the return to villages of refugees depends upon a few things. If there is a settlement i similiar to that of the UK Scotland, Ireland, Wales having their own administration all be it under the one umbrella would a GC want to live in an area dominated by TC's. Most TC's dont really want to return to the south they would be queing up to do it now if they really did. All be it GC's and TC's should have the right to return i dont think too many will. The longer the Cyprus problem/saga continues the less likely there is for any refugees to get original property back. As families go through generations a great grandchild of a refugee is not really likely to care if they want the families lands back the other side of Cyprus, they are more than likely wanting compensation. I do sincerely feel a great deal of sympathy for all refugees. It has went on so long that the web is increasing getting tangled on this issue.


Pyrpolizer

Please! Really pleeease! This is very hard for me to swallow. Listem my friend you just looked at us 30 years after. You saw we made miracles. That’s fine.

Did you come have a look at us in 1974, in 1975 in 1976? Facts are we did not even have food to eat my dear. My family was actually living with those disgusting tinned sardines the UN was sending us. Today when I see sardines and tined food I vomit immediately. My family was living….
Sorry I don’t want to continue. We were poor, hungry, nowhere to live, my father left the country 2 years later. The situation was tragic for the refugees. As for those who were not refugees, the situation was not brilliant either,remember the northern part was the richest, the southern part was almost like a dead place.Tthere were no jobs, but at least the non refugees had a house to live in.
What were the TCs doing then stuballstu? Having parties?

Pyrpolizer would have replied earlier but been busy, apologies.

I have every sympathy for refugees from both sides, and i mean that sincerely. Please lets not get into an argument about the rights and wrongs of what happened as this has been covered on many other threads.

For the record i had a relation who served in the British army here in the late 60's and again after 74. I know only too well from his description what refugees went through as well as what TC's went through from prior to 1974. I have visited Cyprus on holiday from the early 80's away back when Ayia Napa was a fishing village buts that a different story. I also covered Cyprus as part of my further education so would like to think as a non- Cypriot I am better informed than most other foreigners.

I think you should ask TC's if they were having parties after 74. They may have been celebrating Turkey coming to the rescue but having parties i dont think they where but your more than welcome to ask them.

[Pyrpolizer]

I asked hundreds of times by friend. I don't have any prejudices. I simply want to know.
Nobody ever answered me.

[zan]

We were sending clothes on a regular basis from the UK to my family. My Grandmother died in a stinking hospital after a long period of pain and having both her legs amputated. The only relief she had was the money we sent for her tablets which was never enough because most went on the nurses and doctors. She was too ill to travel to Turkey. Ye! She died with her party hat on. Thank heavens that it is all changing now and a proper system is being put into place.

[Alexis]

If there is a settlement i similiar to that of the UK Scotland, Ireland, Wales having their own administration all be it under the one umbrella would a GC want to live in an area dominated by TC's. Most TC's dont really want to return to the south they would be queing up to do it now if they really did. All be it GC's and TC's should have the right to return i dont think too many will. The longer the Cyprus problem/saga continues the less likely there is for any refugees to get original property back. As families go through generations a great grandchild of a refugee is not really likely to care if they want the families lands back the other side of Cyprus, they are more than likely wanting compensation. I do sincerely feel a great deal of sympathy for all refugees. It has went on so long that the web is increasing getting tangled on this issue.

hi stuballstu

Thanks for the reply. I don't see why right of return the way I have explained it is a stumbling block. As you say not many refugees are likely to return anyway so why have restrictions on residence (as in Annan) imposed. I've always said compensation is the way forward as it solves so many of the impossible situations caused by the Turkish intervention and subsequent colonisation/exploitation of refugee land. Much of this cannot be reversed and we cannot expect those settlers that have been in Cyprus for many years to up and leave. However I believe it must be acknowledged that this is:

a) A compromise on the part of the GC side
b) More importantly this is an issue largely created and aggravated by Turkey's policies in Cyprus and as such Turkey should take responsibility including providing compensation etc...

So, to summarise, what I am proposing is that refugees have the right to return to their native villages but not necessarily the same properties. So where is the stumbling block? Also, I'd like to point out that this is not something that would happen overnight, restrictions can and should be imposed for the first few years to prevent some areas been flooded by refugees, but as you point out this should simply be a safety net which is never used since not many will want return anyway.

For the record i had a relation who served in the British army here in the late 60's and again after 74. I know only too well from his description what refugees went through as well as what TC's went through from prior to 1974. I have visited Cyprus on holiday from the early 80's away back when Ayia Napa was a fishing village buts that a different story. I also covered Cyprus as part of my further education so would like to think as a non- Cypriot I am better informed than most other foreigners.

Just out of interest, I got the impression from previous posts that you lived and worked in Cyprus? Not that it matters, just interested. To me it's your views that matter and the fact that we can have a sensible conversation despite having very different views. Anyway it sounds like you have a lot of connections with Cyprus and you seem to know a lot about the history so you are right you are probably better informed than most. All I would say is that I know many people who derive some of their views from either having served in the British armed forces in the 1960s in Cyprus or from knowing someone who did. This is all fine but be aware that at the time (particularly the early 1960s) there was very much still a lingering recent legacy of effectively being 'at war' with the Greek Cypriot community amongst the British armed forces. That's not to say that they would make up stories about their experiences but rather that their attitude towards the two communities may not always have been even handed and that many would have still considered the GC forces as the enemy.
Although the British forces may have tried to be even-handed in their approach to Cyprus as a guarantor power it is clear they were not entirely. That's not to excuse anything or detract from some of the accounts from British soldiers though.

[Pyrpolizer]

Zan I asked how the TCs were living from 1974 until 2002, not how your respected grandmother died.

[Pyrpolizer]

Ye! She died with her party hat on.

Thats black humor re. You made me laugh really, but was it necessary to say that for a dead person, and specifically for your own grandma?
Now you must go to your imam and confess.

[zan]

Ye! She died with her party hat on.

Thats black humor re. You made me laugh really, but was it necessary to say that for a dead person, and specifically for your own grandma?
Now you must go to your imam and confess.

Black humour is supposed to make you think not laugh. I don't know whether you are taking the piss or just trying to take my mind off it but thanks anyway. I responded to a post making light of the TC situation, between those times, from a personal point to help you understand that it was bad and now it is slowly getting better. It was a case of two steps forward one step back and if you tale one from the other you will get a steady, if slow, progress. Just surviving is the term. All this business about them being given houses for nothing is nonsense in the sense that it is worth something if you can sell it and earn enough to put food on the table. Obviously some did better than others but such is life.