Cyprus-Forum.com

[MR-from-NG]

Pyrpolizer, I respect your point of view. Your post last night was brilliant and to the point. In an ideal world we all wish for a just and meaningful settlement.

I don't wont to take advantage of your post of last night and accuse your administration of pussyfooting but if we have to be honest and face facts that is the case.

I visit the north every 6-8 weeks, we are a small community so we all know what we are all up to. My administration is frustrated at Papadopoulos attitude towards the Cypro. They are willing to sit and negotiate(at any cost), can you say the same for yours?

Unless Papa goes nothing will happen except frustration for both communities.

[Pyrpolizer]

I already said my opinion about him mrfromng.
You know after this fiasco at the EU the Americans already announced a really dynamic push in January with the new SG. I said that if he is patriot enough he will negotiate sincerely to bring us a solution. It is obvious that this time the Americans are determined to get the Cyprus problem out of the way for Turkey, so I don't think they will let anyone just trash the procedure.

[Bananiot]

Piratis thinks out loud

Bananiot, in the past you said you would prefer Cyprus to be a British colony. You consider Cyprus to be banana republic, and most Cypriots to be morons. I also got the impression that you would rather live in the UK than Cyprus. If I remember correctly you also said that you own land in Famagusta, which was part of that 7% that would be returned with the Annan plan. Please tell me if I got anything wrong about you.

Of course I would rather prefer Cyprus to still be a British colony and intact, rather than the sorry state it is in now. If you think I said something different, I challenge you to show it to me.

Cyprus is a banana republic if you were to compare it with our stakeholders in the European Union. Let me give you an example and you can decide for yourself whether or not I am right. A certain politician accuses the President (the democratically elected one, to use the cretin terminology) of being a lunatic. He accuses him of leading the country astray and that he lives on psychiatric medication. He claims that they hear him in other countries and cannot stop laughing. Within a few years, the accused President proposes his accuser to become his party leader. The accuser succeeds and while he accepts the party leadership, he speaks about the integrity and wisdom of the same man he accused so vehemently just a while ago. Actually, I have just changed my mind. Can such things happen in a banana republic? Would you accuse me if I consider morons those people that lived through this unbelievable affair and do not ask questions?

I do not own any land or property in Famagusta or anywhere else. Not even a house. I am a refugee but have not used my status to get money from the government or any other similar help. I studied in London and worked through my study years in restaurants, mostly in Kilburn.

And, the Annan Plan, one day, even you will realise, was an option that would have saved Cyprus from the worst. It was not an ideal solution but it was a realistic option under the circumstances that could unite Cyprus. The occupied parts of Cyprus would today be part of the European Union had we said yes, and all the Cypriots together would have been using the EU to enhance and promote the convergence of the two communities. Instead of using the EU to achieve our noble aims, we are now being used and manipulated by our stakeholders who are basically interested in causing a train crush regarding the accession of Turkey, with Cyprus shouldering the bill.

As things stand now, Turkey is moving away from EU accession. This will only solidify partition and you know it. In effect, two are our options. Either partition (a velvet one) or federation along the lines of the Annan Plan. Your idea, Piratis, that we can sit at the touchlines and wait for the balance of power to shift, is a sure prescription for the complete loss of the north with unprecedented consequences while a hostile country with 80 million inhabitants has a 200km border with us.

Before you start complaining about how unfair the plan was, may I remind you that we basically got what we deserve. No doubt, with a proper President at the head, we would have got a better plan but you will do well to remember that the Annan Plan basically reflects the distrust between the two communities. For this distrust, permit me to hold that we share most of the blame, because we allowed the paramilitarists (Sampson, Papadopoulos, Lissarides) to go on a murder spree, back in the 60's.

[StuartN]

My point mrfromng is that there cannot be a solution where either of the 2 communities loses too much in favor of the other. If the GC feels the TC is losing as much as he did then on the average the state will prosper and both communities will move forward successfully.

Now take the complete opposite case. Imagine the GCs take everything and totally capitulate the TCs. The Gcs would face the contempt and hate of the minority (just as what happens in the States) the minority would develop only in business of crime, and rote the majority from down up.

See in either case the result is catastrophic.

Here both communities suffered and learned their lessons.With a balanced solution (even bitter for all of us) we will move forward. With an un-balanced solution we will have more problems even if w that is in favor of the TCs or in favor of the GCs.

Pyr - this is probably one of the best posts so far on this board. Bloody well put.

[Kikapu]

Piratis thinks out loud

Bananiot, in the past you said you would prefer Cyprus to be a British colony. You consider Cyprus to be banana republic, and most Cypriots to be morons. I also got the impression that you would rather live in the UK than Cyprus. If I remember correctly you also said that you own land in Famagusta, which was part of that 7% that would be returned with the Annan plan. Please tell me if I got anything wrong about you.

Of course I would rather prefer Cyprus to still be a British colony and intact, rather than the sorry state it is in now. If you think I said something different, I challenge you to show it to me.

Cyprus is a banana republic if you were to compare it with our stakeholders in the European Union. Let me give you an example and you can decide for yourself whether or not I am right. A certain politician accuses the President (the democratically elected one, to use the cretin terminology) of being a lunatic. He accuses him of leading the country astray and that he lives on psychiatric medication. He claims that they hear him in other countries and cannot stop laughing. Within a few years, the accused President proposes his accuser to become his party leader. The accuser succeeds and while he accepts the party leadership, he speaks about the integrity and wisdom of the same man he accused so vehemently just a while ago. Actually, I have just changed my mind. Can such things happen in a banana republic? Would you accuse me if I consider morons those people that lived through this unbelievable affair and do not ask questions?

I do not own any land or property in Famagusta or anywhere else. Not even a house. I am a refugee but have not used my status to get money from the government or any other similar help. I studied in London and worked through my study years in restaurants, mostly in Kilburn.

And, the Annan Plan, one day, even you will realise, was an option that would have saved Cyprus from the worst. It was not an ideal solution but it was a realistic option under the circumstances that could unite Cyprus. The occupied parts of Cyprus would today be part of the European Union had we said yes, and all the Cypriots together would have been using the EU to enhance and promote the convergence of the two communities. Instead of using the EU to achieve our noble aims, we are now being used and manipulated by our stakeholders who are basically interested in causing a train crush regarding the accession of Turkey, with Cyprus shouldering the bill.

As things stand now, Turkey is moving away from EU accession. This will only solidify partition and you know it. In effect, two are our options. Either partition (a velvet one) or federation along the lines of the Annan Plan. Your idea, Piratis, that we can sit at the touchlines and wait for the balance of power to shift, is a sure prescription for the complete loss of the north with unprecedented consequences while a hostile country with 80 million inhabitants has a 200km border with us.

Before you start complaining about how unfair the plan was, may I remind you that we basically got what we deserve. No doubt, with a proper President at the head, we would have got a better plan but you will do well to remember that the Annan Plan basically reflects the distrust between the two communities. For this distrust, permit me to hold that we share most of the blame, because we allowed the paramilitarists (Sampson, Papadopoulos, Lissarides) to go on a murder spree, back in the 60's.

Great post...can't really add anymore to it, other than, Cyprus is being used by the EU to keep Turkey out of the EU, and Cyprus is paying the price, for it's troubles.!!

[Piratis]

Of course I would rather prefer Cyprus to still be a British colony and intact, rather than the sorry state it is in now.

So fully occupied instead of partly occupied? Maybe you would prefer a return to the Ottoman rule as well?

Cyprus is a banana republic if you were to compare it with our stakeholders in the European Union.

Sure, the 1960 constitution forced on us by the British is bad compared to what other EU countries have. I don't think any EU country has "guarantors" and all that crap.
What I asked you is to compare the bad that we were forced in the 60s with the much worst you tried to force on us in 2004. If what we have now is a Banana Republic, then what would we have after the Annan plan?

I do not own any land or property in Famagusta or anywhere else. Not even a house.

Maybe this is why you are not able to understand the property issue then? Or our fears for going bankrupt after a bad "solution" (it ihame, ti hasame?)

And, the Annan Plan, one day, even you will realise, was an option that would have saved Cyprus from the worst. It was not an ideal solution but it was a realistic option under the circumstances that could unite Cyprus.

It would not unite Cyprus. For Greek Cypriots the occupied north would just be a separate country with a GC minority (although I doubt many GCs would choose to go and live there under such circumstances).

Say theoretically that the island is partitioned officially, but the north enters the EU and some GCs are allowed to return there as a minority. How different is such "solution" from the Annan plan "solution"? The only difference would be all those complicated dysfunctional 26 parliaments and 6 presidents crap.

So basically Annan plan not only it was partition, it was even worst.

The occupied parts of Cyprus would today be part of the European Union had we said yes, and all the Cypriots together would have been using the EU to enhance and promote the convergence of the two communities.

This is the biggest joke ever! The Turks would gain on our loss and then you expect them to give up something after we have singed it away? Are you serious? The last time we even tried to propose a change they went all wild. Sorry, but we will not fall in the trap of "accept it now and improve it later". We know better now.

Instead of using the EU to achieve our noble aims, we are now being used and manipulated by our stakeholders who are basically interested in causing a train crush regarding the accession of Turkey, with Cyprus shouldering the bill.

I don't know about you, but personally I would also like to see that train trash the sooner.

In effect, two are our options. Either partition (a velvet one) or federation along the lines of the Annan Plan.

Today we have two options: 1) Legalize partition or 2) Illegal partition. I choose the second because it is the least bad for us, it harms our enemies and it leaves the door open for the future. What would (1) give us?

Your idea, Piratis, that we can sit at the touchlines and wait for the balance of power to shift, is a sure prescription for the complete loss of the north with unprecedented consequences while a hostile country with 80 million inhabitants has a 200km border with us.

That hostile country used to be 10 times bigger. If everybody had your loser masochist mentality Greeks would exist only in history books today. The balance of power will change sooner or later, and we should be ready to take advantage of it for our benefit.

Before you start complaining about how unfair the plan was, may I remind you that we basically got what we deserve. No doubt, with a proper President at the head, we would have got a better plan but you will do well to remember that the Annan Plan basically reflects the distrust between the two communities. For this distrust, permit me to hold that we share most of the blame, because we allowed the paramilitarists (Sampson, Papadopoulos, Lissarides) to go on a murder spree, back in the 60's.

Here you go again accusing people out of nowhere. If you have to put a name along with that of Samson, thats the name of Cleredes and Anastasiades. Even until today the son of Samson is a parliament member of DISY, the party of Cleredes. Papadopoulos and Lissaredes are the exact opposites of him, and their parties are in alliance exactly to keep people like Samson and you without the power to harm even more our country with your treasonous actions.

The Annan plan was a result of the current balance of power, and absolutely nothing beyond this.

About the mistrust, I don't know about you, but go ask GCs out there if they trust the Turks and you will see if the mistrust is due to GCs alone. Or maybe when the Turks butcher us by the 1000s as recently as just 32 years ago, and when 1 of every 3 Cypriots is a refugee, thats not a problem and a cause of mistrust?

[Piratis]

About the Annan plan, here is what Turkey's most known journalist said about it:

02 11 2006

Mehmet Ali Birand

Before the vote on the Annan plan, I personally believed the Turkish Cypriots were faced with a historic opportunity and did everything I could to ensure that the plan was a success. I believed that, with the plan, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (KKTC) would be able to stand on its own two feet. The KKTC would enter the European Union with Greek Cyprus and consequently, the Cyprus issue would no longer be an obstacle to Turkey's EU aspirations. I am still of the same opinion.

So please don't tell me that Annan plan was about unification. It was about our capitulation, our acceptance for partition, and it was rushed in 2004, days before our EU accession, not to solve our problem (it wouldn't) but to solve the biggest problem that Turkey would face in her EU accession process.

[MR-from-NG]

Hi Piratis, long time no see

[zan]

Zan,

Hypothetically lets suppose the GCs had no other option than to accept the Anan Plan.
Would you like to live in a country where the majority would be looking at you with contempt?
I guarantee you this is how the TCs would be looked by the GCs.

And lets suppose this new state would not allow you the option for final partition. Do you think the smaller component state would ever prosper given the contemp of the people of the other bigger component state.

A state my friend is not only Government. A state is by far and most private institutions and private enterprises.
Think about it.

I did not pose the theory that they would not have had any option but said that the president of the RoC should have gone in and bargained hard for ALL Cypriots and not just for the GCs if he really wanted a fair deal. I can tell you know that most of the TCs that voted had no idea what the Annan plan was about and just wanted to get back to a normal life. They were unceremoniously and categorically rejected. They are now educating themselves with the realities and what they realise makes their hair stand on end. Tpaps accountants realised at the very last moment what the real cost of reunification would be and that they would have to foot the bill. This is the whole crux of the RoCs problem and they are underhandedly trying to pass the buck on to Turkey. Greece is keeping very quite because it does not want to pay a penny and Turkey is letting them because they would be a bigger obstacle in Turkeys EU accessions. Greece gets on with it, the RoC gets on with it, Turkey gets on with it and we the TCs get stuffed in the process. Make no mistake I have been fighting all this as a Turkish Cypriot and not just a Turk although I am grateful to Turkey for keeping us afloat as such. Greece has already washed its hands of us. Turkey has the option and the RoC has no need of us. We have only one way to go and that is self determination and maybe good relations with our GC cousins will develop into reunification in the future but at the moment….no way.

[Murataga]

I agree with Zan however would like to reiterate my belief that Turkey will always keep supporting our quest for self-administration rights in Cyprus.

Turkish Cypriots are: pro “agreed” partitionists (please notice its distinction from being a sole “pro partitionist”). More elaborately, we want a “Partnership State of Cyprus” where the equal status and legitimacy of its co-founding parties is explicitly recognized and respected and that under it, neither side is allowed, directly or implicitly, to extend its will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other. The principles of bi-communality, political equality and bi-zonality are the key parameters for a settlement in Cyprus that have also been endorsed by the U.N. Security Council.

We want to live in Cyprus with Greeks as our friends and neighbors but not as our administrators.