I'm giving you references to scientific research and you're giving me an opinon article written by Gunduz Aktans' (you should read his opinions on Cyprus) which does n't even site his sources, sorry if I dont quite equate the two as being the same, I've given you a puplished research paper from this year that shows the level of third births in Kurds is reaching that of Turks. Also within the context of womens rights, its is obvious that these women are at the bottom of the social ladder and this issue is a major issue for the society and the EU that is being addressed. Gunduz Aktans articles should be taken with a pinch of salt, his articles follow the pattern whereby he lays into everyone, being the Turkish establishment, EU, liberals, neo-liberals, capitalists, intellectuals, "so-called" illectuals, the PKK, and so forth although surprisingly(?) he's never had a go at the Turkish army or neo-islamists.
Please give me published research, I found mine within 2 minutes on google I'm sure you should be able to find the same if they are irrefutable facts.
The collapse of the illusions
by pitsilos » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:05 pm
skipper, i just quoted you a turkish source, from a major paper in turkey. if you want to discredit that go ahead, but really I ain't gonna sit here and write you a thesis about the subject, when I know and you know these people all the do is make babies. its just sooner or later its gonna catch up. you think that all births are registered in SE turkey? i doubt this very much.
ps the article does have some valid points as to why is happenning.
ps the article does have some valid points as to why is happenning.
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by skipper » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:14 pm
pitsilos wrote:skipper, i just quoted you a turkish source, from a major paper in turkey. if you want to discredit that go ahead, but really I ain't gonna sit here and write you a thesis about the subject, when I know and you know these people all the do is make babies. its just sooner or later its gonna catch up. you think that all births are registered in SE turkey? i doubt this very much.
ps the article does have some valid points as to why is happenning.
The TDN is as much a major paper in Turkey as the Cyprus Mail is the voice of the GC's, infact the Cyprus Mail probably has a larger circulation since the TDN is n't availble in print form as far as I know.
The TDN does have some good articles from time to time but they are ones that have been published in other news papers and just been translated into english.
Gunduz Aktan's article follows his usual "enemies of Turkey" conspiracy theory style, the PKK, USA, EU, they're all there. Notice how he does n't critise the state or the army for the situation he describes whilst defending that Kemalism is under attack, also he attacks the "neo-liberal" economic policies basically implying the statist (kemalist style) economy are called for, I could go on but wont. The whole article is designed to get right wing Turks worked up and angry, notice how he compares it to the 1913 Balkans wars just to get the emotions going. He has another article where is says that if TC's and Kurds been made more religious they'd be more loving towards the (obsessively secular) Turkish republic, thats pretty much when I started to ignore his articles.
I'm not asking for a thesis from you I'm just asking for some credible source, not a news paper article that does n't even mention its sources, it took me all of two minutes on google to find mine.
Also, dont worry, a large proportion of Turks still live in villages and do nothing but make babies too, its not exclusive to the Kurds.
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by Pyrpolizer » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:31 pm
My friend skipper,
Cyprus mail is NOT the voice of the GCs. It is the voice of the very few GCs working for the interest of the British. The circulation of CM is very very low and the views it expresses are actually the views of marginal GCs like Bananiot.
On the other hand, I have not seen any of your post so far saying anything but the real truth with clear cut judgement.
I thus advice my friend Pitsilos to listen to you more careflly.
Cyprus mail is NOT the voice of the GCs. It is the voice of the very few GCs working for the interest of the British. The circulation of CM is very very low and the views it expresses are actually the views of marginal GCs like Bananiot.
On the other hand, I have not seen any of your post so far saying anything but the real truth with clear cut judgement.
I thus advice my friend Pitsilos to listen to you more careflly.
-
Pyrpolizer - Leading Contributor
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by skipper » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:59 pm
Pyrpolizer wrote:My friend skipper,
Cyprus mail is NOT the voice of the GCs. It is the voice of the very few GCs working for the interest of the British. The circulation of CM is very very low and the views it expresses are actually the views of marginal GCs like Bananiot.
On the other hand, I have not seen any of your post so far saying anything but the real truth with clear cut judgement.
I thus advice my friend Pitsilos to listen to you more careflly.
Dont worry, I'm well aware of the GC's (well the ones on this boards anyway) view towards the Cyprus Mail newspaper, thats why I used it as a comparison to TDN, It was a touch of irony.
Well I am flattered but to be honest it seems that everyone here has their own view of what is true when it comes to the Cyprus problem but I also see alot of wishful thinking on behalf of both TC's and GC's.
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by Bananiot » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:23 pm
Here is an article by ex foreign minister Nicos Rolandis in today's Politis, the second in circulation Greek Cypriot newspaper.
Hamlet, God and Allah
By Nicos A Rolandis
HAMLET, in William Shakespeare’s play of the same name, says that “politicians are persons that would circumvent God”. In their course of action politicians would outmanoeuvre and evade even their own Creator. And I feel certain that the Machiavellian machinations and the Byzantine intrigues (which are of course beyond divine parameters) that politicians have employed in Cyprus over the past 50 years have brought about the deadlock that we encounter today.
Since 1955, the two Cypriot communities have many times embarked on a war of words but also on armed conflicts. Greece and Turkey have been actively implicated in this clash. Each side steadfastly believes to be in the right. According to an ancient Greek adage, a person can only see the bag that hangs in front of his chest containing the mistakes of other people; he has no knowledge of his own mistakes, which lie in a bag hanging on his back.
We, Greek Cypriots, use the prefix “pseudo” when we refer to the other community. The Turkish Cypriots consider our government as the “administration of the south”. Worldwide the media refer to “north” and “south” or to “Turkish Cyprus” and “Greek Cyprus”. We accuse Turkey of the invasion and occupation of our country, the other community charges that we carried out the coup d’état and that we have imposed on them an embargo and have cut them off the international community. We consider the Turks as the culprits and ourselves as the victims (although in Brussels, in June 2004, our President, together with the other 24 EU members, commended Turkey on her positive contribution to the solution of the Cyprus problem – obviously during the April referendum). The Turkish Cypriots think that we are to blame.
There has been an incessant bickering between the two communities and quite often foreign powers become the target of our wrath. Foreign mediators, including our European partners (who certainly pursue and promote their own interests as well), are already sick and tired of us. As the Special Representative of the UN Secretary-general Hugo Gobbi aptly told me in Geneva back in 1983, when he was about to leave Cyprus: “Kyprianou and Denktash deserve each other.”
During all these years, we have been looking for scapegoats. We all consider ourselves as sinless. We do not want to admit any wrongdoing on our part. So:
1. In the 1960s we considered that Greek Prime Minister Constantinos Karamanlis was to blame for the 1960 Zurich-London Agreements. We overlooked the fact that we had started the 1955-59 struggle, despite the negative advice of the Greek government. The struggle was heroic and glorious, but there was no programming and no sufficient political judgment, so it ended with the 1960 Agreements, which the then Consul-General of Greece in Cyprus Angelos Vlahos described as “a way out of a shipwreck”. However, we continued blaming Karamanlis. Karamanlis, aggrieved and resentful, never visited Cyprus.
From 1960 until 1974, most of the Greek Cypriots pursued union with Greece (enosis) and most of the Turkish Cypriots worked for partition (taksim). Very few Cypriots really believed in the Republic of Cyprus. In 1963, Makarios, acting against the advice of the Greek government, took the wrong decision to try to amend the Constitution. In 1967, the House of Representatives voted unanimously for the union of Cyprus with Greece! Militias like Akritas (Greek Cypriot) and TMT (Turkish Cypriot) spread fear and death across the island. Various warlords entered the game. The two communities were gradually but steadily demolishing the cells of the Republic of Cyprus.
2. In 1974, the coup d’état was carried out by Greeks and Greek Cypriots with the objective of union with Greece. Makarios in his speech at the UN Security Council on July 19, 1974 referred repeatedly to a Greek invasion against Cyprus. On the following day, July 20, 1974, Turkey invaded Cyprus, occupied 37 per cent of the territory and has since then solidified the occupation.
3. A number of initiatives for a solution of the Cyprus problem followed. Seven were the basic ones (excluding some initial efforts in the wake of the invasion).
a) The Anglo American Canadian Plan (1978)
b) The Evaluation – Waldheim (1981)
c) The Indicators – Perez de Cuellar (1983)
d) The Consolidated Documents – Perez de Cuellar (1985)
e) The Set of Ideas - Boutros Ghali (1992)
f) Troutbeck and Glion – Kofi Annan (1997)
g) Annan Plan (2002)
All the above initiatives were turned down. They contained what was feasible and not what was desirable. The Greek Cypriots rejected all of them except for the 1997 initiative. The Turkish Cypriots accepted only the Annan plan.
All those implicated with the Cyprus problem, most of them friends of ours, ended up as “enemies”. They were vilified in a vulgar fashion. UN Secretaries General and their representatives, ministers, EU officials were scorned and disparaged. We created hostile feelings. And a small and weak country needs friends, not enemies.
The situation today is the worst we ever had. The Turkish Cypriots have a moderate leader, who of course promotes their interests, with whom we might reach an understanding. However, we have deflected from the course of the solution of the Cyprus problem and we have veered to other directions. We have acted as amateurs and we are facing deadlocks. We became entangled in the EU accession process of Turkey, in the “small” and “big” vetoes, in the Turkish ports which are not opening up for us. In the meantime, Cyprus is in a process of final partition, since there is no communication, no contact, no dialogue between the communities. The Turkish Cypriots after they got to know us better in the past two to three years, appear to have distanced themselves from us. We managed to lose our properties in the north and to be inundated with new influxes of settlers. Partition is being cemented in an impeccable manner.
I wonder whether there is still hope. God and Allah, who for the past 46 years have been circumvented by politicians, as Hamlet says, might at last wake up and decide to act. They might work their own miracle.
Hamlet, God and Allah
By Nicos A Rolandis
HAMLET, in William Shakespeare’s play of the same name, says that “politicians are persons that would circumvent God”. In their course of action politicians would outmanoeuvre and evade even their own Creator. And I feel certain that the Machiavellian machinations and the Byzantine intrigues (which are of course beyond divine parameters) that politicians have employed in Cyprus over the past 50 years have brought about the deadlock that we encounter today.
Since 1955, the two Cypriot communities have many times embarked on a war of words but also on armed conflicts. Greece and Turkey have been actively implicated in this clash. Each side steadfastly believes to be in the right. According to an ancient Greek adage, a person can only see the bag that hangs in front of his chest containing the mistakes of other people; he has no knowledge of his own mistakes, which lie in a bag hanging on his back.
We, Greek Cypriots, use the prefix “pseudo” when we refer to the other community. The Turkish Cypriots consider our government as the “administration of the south”. Worldwide the media refer to “north” and “south” or to “Turkish Cyprus” and “Greek Cyprus”. We accuse Turkey of the invasion and occupation of our country, the other community charges that we carried out the coup d’état and that we have imposed on them an embargo and have cut them off the international community. We consider the Turks as the culprits and ourselves as the victims (although in Brussels, in June 2004, our President, together with the other 24 EU members, commended Turkey on her positive contribution to the solution of the Cyprus problem – obviously during the April referendum). The Turkish Cypriots think that we are to blame.
There has been an incessant bickering between the two communities and quite often foreign powers become the target of our wrath. Foreign mediators, including our European partners (who certainly pursue and promote their own interests as well), are already sick and tired of us. As the Special Representative of the UN Secretary-general Hugo Gobbi aptly told me in Geneva back in 1983, when he was about to leave Cyprus: “Kyprianou and Denktash deserve each other.”
During all these years, we have been looking for scapegoats. We all consider ourselves as sinless. We do not want to admit any wrongdoing on our part. So:
1. In the 1960s we considered that Greek Prime Minister Constantinos Karamanlis was to blame for the 1960 Zurich-London Agreements. We overlooked the fact that we had started the 1955-59 struggle, despite the negative advice of the Greek government. The struggle was heroic and glorious, but there was no programming and no sufficient political judgment, so it ended with the 1960 Agreements, which the then Consul-General of Greece in Cyprus Angelos Vlahos described as “a way out of a shipwreck”. However, we continued blaming Karamanlis. Karamanlis, aggrieved and resentful, never visited Cyprus.
From 1960 until 1974, most of the Greek Cypriots pursued union with Greece (enosis) and most of the Turkish Cypriots worked for partition (taksim). Very few Cypriots really believed in the Republic of Cyprus. In 1963, Makarios, acting against the advice of the Greek government, took the wrong decision to try to amend the Constitution. In 1967, the House of Representatives voted unanimously for the union of Cyprus with Greece! Militias like Akritas (Greek Cypriot) and TMT (Turkish Cypriot) spread fear and death across the island. Various warlords entered the game. The two communities were gradually but steadily demolishing the cells of the Republic of Cyprus.
2. In 1974, the coup d’état was carried out by Greeks and Greek Cypriots with the objective of union with Greece. Makarios in his speech at the UN Security Council on July 19, 1974 referred repeatedly to a Greek invasion against Cyprus. On the following day, July 20, 1974, Turkey invaded Cyprus, occupied 37 per cent of the territory and has since then solidified the occupation.
3. A number of initiatives for a solution of the Cyprus problem followed. Seven were the basic ones (excluding some initial efforts in the wake of the invasion).
a) The Anglo American Canadian Plan (1978)
b) The Evaluation – Waldheim (1981)
c) The Indicators – Perez de Cuellar (1983)
d) The Consolidated Documents – Perez de Cuellar (1985)
e) The Set of Ideas - Boutros Ghali (1992)
f) Troutbeck and Glion – Kofi Annan (1997)
g) Annan Plan (2002)
All the above initiatives were turned down. They contained what was feasible and not what was desirable. The Greek Cypriots rejected all of them except for the 1997 initiative. The Turkish Cypriots accepted only the Annan plan.
All those implicated with the Cyprus problem, most of them friends of ours, ended up as “enemies”. They were vilified in a vulgar fashion. UN Secretaries General and their representatives, ministers, EU officials were scorned and disparaged. We created hostile feelings. And a small and weak country needs friends, not enemies.
The situation today is the worst we ever had. The Turkish Cypriots have a moderate leader, who of course promotes their interests, with whom we might reach an understanding. However, we have deflected from the course of the solution of the Cyprus problem and we have veered to other directions. We have acted as amateurs and we are facing deadlocks. We became entangled in the EU accession process of Turkey, in the “small” and “big” vetoes, in the Turkish ports which are not opening up for us. In the meantime, Cyprus is in a process of final partition, since there is no communication, no contact, no dialogue between the communities. The Turkish Cypriots after they got to know us better in the past two to three years, appear to have distanced themselves from us. We managed to lose our properties in the north and to be inundated with new influxes of settlers. Partition is being cemented in an impeccable manner.
I wonder whether there is still hope. God and Allah, who for the past 46 years have been circumvented by politicians, as Hamlet says, might at last wake up and decide to act. They might work their own miracle.
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by Pyrpolizer » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:46 pm
Bananiot,
If it were possible for me to inform you who Rolandis REALLY is I can assure you would get a heart attack.
If it were possible for me to inform you who Rolandis REALLY is I can assure you would get a heart attack.
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by MR-from-NG » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:51 pm
If it were possible for me to inform you who Rolandis REALLY is I can assure you would get a heart attack.
Come on Pyrpolizer the suspense is killing me. Tell us, tell us nooooow, pleeeeeaaaase.
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